The so-called " cobra swords"

ariel · 22nd November 2019, 03:43 PM

Jens,
That would suggest that Rajput " kings" who moved to Himachal Pradesh just made their swords look more local and the term " Indo-Afghani swords" might be a misnomer. This is supported ( albeit weakly) by the variety of handles used. Sword handles in India were replaced like worn shoes.
The possibility #2 mentioned earlier seems quite likely.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd November 2019, 04:33 PM

Ariel,
What shall I say? The best answer is, I dont know. I have seen these swords in pictures, and the one on exhibition in Copenhagen, at The David Collection in 1982, but I have never researched these swords, as I have never owned one.

Quote. That would suggest that Rajput " kings" who moved to Himachal Pradesh just made their swords look more local and the term " Indo-Afghani swords" might be a misnomer. Unquote.

Which time era do you refer to?

mariusgmioc · 22nd November 2019, 05:34 PM

Very interesting topic!

What strikes me at these swords is the unmistakenly Indian construction of the blade (with chiseled central ridge and reinforced edges).

ariel · 22nd November 2019, 08:56 PM

Marius,
You are absolutely correct: the blades are unmistakeably S. Indian.
This strengthens the argument that the handles were a later modification.
So, should we stop calling them Indo-Afghani?
Probably not: the modifications on many of them were of Afghani styles. By the same logic, Persian and purely Indian blades are in fact “( Something)- Afghani”, we just need to look separately on different components of a given sword.
I may show some swords that, in my estimation are purely Afghani based on both handle and blade.

Handles are simple: pulwar-like are unmistakeable.

Can we start describing features of a genuinely Afghani blade?

Let’s open the floodgates! Go on!

ariel · 22nd November 2019, 10:12 PM

Jens,

Rajputs started emigrating to the peri - Himalayan hills around 12 century. This process became more and more active by the 16-17 century when a Gurkha kingdom was established.
I think the Afghani pulwar fully matured from the Deccani/ N. Indian cup-like form into a full “ pulwar one” not earlier than 17-18 century.
If we combine the calendars, my guess the “ Indian-Afghani” swords came into existence not earlier than that.

Just a guess.

Kubur · 23rd November 2019, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I may show some swords that, in my estimation are purely Afghani based on both handle and blade.
Let’s open the floodgates! Go on!

Buttin mentionned one and called it Afghan short sword...
I believe in statistics when you have many cobra swords with Afghan hilts well...

ariel · 23rd November 2019, 01:40 PM

It is very easy to attach a word “Afghani” to a bladed weapon when it has typical “pulwar” handle.

But if Elgood is right and there was a “ marriage of convenience” we may need to sit down and start thinking anew.
Look at the series of pics shown by me: there are examples of Tulwar handle, modified basket handle ( Deccan?), unquestionable Pulwar and a modified Pulwar with downturned quillons but with an original S. Indian pommel.

With this variety of handles how certain are we in our blanket definition as “ Indo-Afghani”?

mariusgmioc · 23rd November 2019, 02:49 PM

What is this?
Is it a Nepalese kukri?
Is it an Indian tulwar?
Is it Nepalo-Indian?
Is it Indo-Nepalese?
I simply believe it is a "kukri with a tulwar hilt."
Simple and clear.
And the same logic applies for the "cobra swords" in question.

23rd November 2019, 02:49 PM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	What is this? Is it a Nepalese kukri? Is it an Indian tulwar? Is it Nepalo-Indian? Is it Indo-Nepalese? I simply believe it is a "kukri with a tulwar hilt." Simple and clear. And the same logic applies for the "cobra swords" in question. Attached Images

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22nd November 2019, 03:43 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jens, That would suggest that Rajput " kings" who moved to Himachal Pradesh just made their swords look more local and the term " Indo-Afghani swords" might be a misnomer. This is supported ( albeit weakly) by the variety of handles used. Sword handles in India were replaced like worn shoes. The possibility #2 mentioned earlier seems quite likely.

22nd November 2019, 04:33 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, What shall I say? The best answer is, I dont know. I have seen these swords in pictures, and the one on exhibition in Copenhagen, at The David Collection in 1982, but I have never researched these swords, as I have never owned one. Quote. That would suggest that Rajput " kings" who moved to Himachal Pradesh just made their swords look more local and the term " Indo-Afghani swords" might be a misnomer. Unquote. Which time era do you refer to?

22nd November 2019, 05:34 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Very interesting topic! What strikes me at these swords is the unmistakenly Indian construction of the blade (with chiseled central ridge and reinforced edges).

22nd November 2019, 08:56 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Marius, You are absolutely correct: the blades are unmistakeably S. Indian. This strengthens the argument that the handles were a later modification. So, should we stop calling them Indo-Afghani? Probably not: the modifications on many of them were of Afghani styles. By the same logic, Persian and purely Indian blades are in fact “( Something)- Afghani”, we just need to look separately on different components of a given sword. I may show some swords that, in my estimation are purely Afghani based on both handle and blade. Handles are simple: pulwar-like are unmistakeable. Can we start describing features of a genuinely Afghani blade? Let’s open the floodgates! Go on!

22nd November 2019, 10:12 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jens, Rajputs started emigrating to the peri - Himalayan hills around 12 century. This process became more and more active by the 16-17 century when a Gurkha kingdom was established. I think the Afghani pulwar fully matured from the Deccani/ N. Indian cup-like form into a full “ pulwar one” not earlier than 17-18 century. If we combine the calendars, my guess the “ Indian-Afghani” swords came into existence not earlier than that. Just a guess.

23rd November 2019, 01:40 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is very easy to attach a word “Afghani” to a bladed weapon when it has typical “pulwar” handle. But if Elgood is right and there was a “ marriage of convenience” we may need to sit down and start thinking anew. Look at the series of pics shown by me: there are examples of Tulwar handle, modified basket handle ( Deccan?), unquestionable Pulwar and a modified Pulwar with downturned quillons but with an original S. Indian pommel. With this variety of handles how certain are we in our blanket definition as “ Indo-Afghani”?