Italian or spanish navaja old knife ?

[kronckew]

Mea culpa, nothing to do with Italy, see above. I'm going to have a glass of Taylor's Port and lie down....If I can find the Bottle in my new kitchen, they finished remodelling it Friday.

I suspect the book they were referring to was indeed Forton's, probably an older edition, in Spanish.

I'm gonna stop digging anyway before the hole gets too deep to claw my way back out.

===================Stop the Presses==============
One more spade full: It was indeed Fortan's book he was referring to.

My navaja guy contacted his SPANISH expert who told him the Pictures in the Forton Navaja book are pretty, but the descriptive parts are better excised and used for toilet paper. He was a bit more descriptive, so i toned it down a bit.

[Chris Evans]

Hi,

Fernando made an excellent commentary on Forton's works and the only meaningful thing that I can add is that until we know exactly which of his many works on this subject is being objected to and the precise grounds for the said objection, we should put this discussion on hold.

Forton's writings on this subject are serious works, worthy of academia, and definitely not those of a lightweight dilettante, and probably the most thoroughgoing in the Spanish language - Thus any valid criticism has to be presented along with solid evidence to allow meaningful discussion.

Cheers
Chris

[kronckew]

Chris, One piece of the Puzzle, this is the dust cover of the book. I do not have a copy, tho my spanish reading friend does. Maybe he will offer some examples of misleading descriptives. I'm just the middle man stirring the hornet's nest for them and warning 'Caveat Emptor'.

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Chris, One piece of the Puzzle, this is the dust cover of the book. I do not have a copy, tho my spanish reading friend does. Maybe he will offer some examples of misleading descriptives. I'm just the middle man stirring the hornet's nest for them and warning 'Caveat Emptor'.

Thanks for that, and I do have a copy.

This is what we may call a coffee table book, with 237 photographs of single and groups of fine collectable navajas sorted by origin of locality, mostly from within Spain but also including France, Italy, broader Europe, the Orient and Sundry. Each photograph carries a short commentary on the knives portrayed in both Spanish and English.

I cannot pass judgement on the accuracy of the alleged origin and dating of many of the navajas presented but will reiterate what I already said in my post #27, i.e. that their positive identification, in the absence of maker's brand and date, is by necessity a guessing game, all too often based on community consensus.

As well, in the Prologue, the author acknowledges the many difficuties involved due to lack of access to many archives, the loss of documentation and the passing of time.

Even when the knife carries a brand, as exemplified by the ubiquitous wares of Valero Jun, of Zaragoza, their true origin remains unknown (most probably Thiers in France), because it was, and remains, a widespread practice in the cutlery industry to commission the fabrication of knives with contractors and then inscribing them with the vendor's logo or brand.

And on top of all this we have the additional problem of brand falsification by unscrupulous cutlers, once a very common practice.

My general view of the book is that it is as reliable as any Spanish or English source in print and far better than most, and if it does contain some verifiable errors which do not come down to mere opinions (as re Valero Jun), then these must treated as editorial in origin.

What would be a great service to collectors is if someone has indeed found such errors, then compile an errata and post it somewhere on the web.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

because it was, and remains, a widespread practice in the cutlery industry to commission the fabrication of knives with contractors and then inscribing them with the vendor's logo or brand...

Or like those pre-engraved with decor motifs destined to sell as Sevilla recuerdos ...

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

What would be a great service to collectors is if someone has indeed found such errors, then compile an errata and post it somewhere on the web.

Or publish a work where such errors are eradicated; and let the readers/collectors themselves define which one is best for carta higienica .

[kronckew]

We seem to agree now

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by fernando

Or like those pre-engraved with decor motifs destined to sell as Sevilla recuerdos ...

Not to mention the huge number of 20th century souvenir navajas made in Albacete and Santa Cruz De Mudela bearing the ubiquitous inscription of "TOLEDO"

Or publish a work where such errors are eradicated; and let the readers/collectors themselves define which one is best for carta higienica .

I doubt if there would be enough verifiable errors to warrant a parallel publication; This is probably why there are so few published works on the subject. And we must bear in mind that the book being discussed would have been extremely expensive to produce on account of all the photography involved.

I am sufficiently familiar with the extant Spanish literature on the subject to be able to confidently say that any new work will probably amount to no more than mere footnotes to Forton's works.

And I am not saying this because I think that they are bulletproof, good as they are, rather because he picked all the proverbial low hanging fruits and anybody who wishes to break new ground would have to do some extremely difficult research with not promise of any great rewards at the end. Or to put it differently, he got in early, claimed the whole field for himself, leaving precious little for others to research.

One area where an enterprising author could perhaps make a worthwhile contribution is a technical treatise of the designs and manufacturing methods employed by the pre 20th century cutlers, especially contrasting those of France with their Spanish counterparts. I say France, because by the last quarter of the 19th cntry their navajas were pouring into Spain by the millions and destroying the local industry on account of much better made and priced products.

I know that Forton, in his magnum opus, La Navaja Antigua Espanola, dedicated a chapter (Estudio Tecnico) to this subject, but I found it not quite up to the level of the rest of the work, for one as exemplified by his reluctance and or inability to even tentatively elaborate on the ratcheting teeth (carraca) found on so many navajas, an almost defining characteristic of the genre.

Cheers
Chris

[kronckew]

This one, I mentioned above, just sold for a tidy sum, not to me or my friends. It was marked 'Por Defensa de xxxxx Sevilla - 28 de Julio de 1868') (49cm fully extended), The xxxxx indicates an illegible name.