Old Khyber

ariel · 15th September 2019, 11:53 PM

The beautiful one on the front cover of the “ Afghani edged weapons” book is Indian. Fiegels’ sale catalogue has a couple of Persian. I have one with deep old Indian chiseling ( thanks, Jens) and another potentially Indian with elephant ivory handle and sophisticated wootz blade.
But we are talking about Afghanistan proper , and most khybers in use there will be of local manufacture.
It’s like seeing more Fords than Fiats and Alfa Romeos in America. But move to Italy, and the proportions will flip. And, of course, their occurrence in neighboring countries is likely to be largely limited to ethic Afghans, such as Khyber Pakhtunhwa in contemporary Pakistan, formerly part of India.

Jim McDougall · 16th September 2019, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The beautiful one on the front cover of the “ Afghani edged weapons” book is Indian. Fiegels’ sale catalogue has a couple of Persian. I have one with deep old Indian chiseling ( thanks, Jens) and another potentially Indian with elephant ivory handle and sophisticated wootz blade.
But we are talking about Afghanistan proper , and most khybers in use there will be of local manufacture.
It’s like seeing more Fords than Fiats and Alfa Romeos in America. But move to Italy, and the proportions will flip. And, of course, their occurrence in neighboring countries is likely to be largely limited to ethic Afghans, such as Khyber Pakhtunhwa in contemporary Pakistan, formerly part of India.

Crossed posts! I did not realize the one on the book cover was Indian (?). Would that be in that Afghanistan in the 19th c. was considered part of India?
I do not have Fiegel handy, but again did not realize there were Persian Khyber's in it. It does seem quite understandable that ethnic persons of Khyber tribes in other geographic locales might take their Khyber's along.

mahratt · 16th September 2019, 10:46 AM

I'd like to clarify a little bit the words of the Ariel. Indeed, there are many Khyber knives made in India or by Indian craftsmen in Afghanistan. Such Khyber knives can be seen in large quantities in museums in India. But! Khyber knives, which we could call "Persian" (made in Persia or by Persian masters in Afghanistan) are known very little...

Jim McDougall · 16th September 2019, 05:02 PM

Dima thank you for this information and clarification! I truly did not know of these Khyber swords being made in India, but I can understand that there must have been Indian craftsmen in Afghan regions who might make them.
As you well note, the idea of these often very large bladed Khyber swords being made in Persia seems very unlikely, just as the idea of Persian craftsmen in Afghanistan seems remote.

It seems well established of course that artisans of regions often move to other areas, and in doing so take their skills and styling character with them of course. It makes sense that obviously these styles, techniques and character would in degree become melded together in the examples they produced.

I think the objective of recognizing the possibility of this particular Khyber being one of these hybrids, or accounting for its unusual decoration is well at hand here. As far as I can see however, is that this example in the original post is of the commonly seen versions produced in the typical manner in Khyber regions, rather than one produced in these other areas noted.

We return to the very crudely applied acid etched decoration. We know that this technique was used in Persia, and by its craftsmen. It is possible that this technique, which became it seems more widely practiced in latter part of 19th c. (thinking of the Sudanese thuluth case) may have been carried into many regions by craftsmen relocating.

I think its crudely applied character of the decoration here, which has been the primary point of contention, pretty much renders the possibility of being done by a skilled craftsman unlikely, particularly Persian. The likelihood of the scenario proposed by Ed, a copied theme added by a tribal artisan representing local traditions or events is far more plausible.

ariel · 18th September 2019, 06:57 PM

Update:
One of the " translators" sent me a message: this is written in ancient variant of Farsi, but the quality of deep etching is very poor, the letters flow into each other.
She could translate only a small fragment:" ...the king gave advice to his son..."
She is taking it to her parents ; perhaps, they might be more successful, but I doubt more and more that translation may give us any specific information: Persians were fond of general statements of literary origin inscribed on their blades. I have a Khyber with rhino handle and 4 rivets (2-1-1); the upper 2 used to be "big" , but the washers were lost. It is inscribed in old Persian with a quote from Sa'adi's " Golestan ( 13 century). Central Asia ( Bukhara, Khiva, Samarkand)? Northern Afghanistan? Iran proper?

So, one thing is clear: the etching was made by a Farsi-speaking person. Whether he was an itinerant master from Iran or a Persianized Afghani is unclear. In any case, it may explain the human figure and ,- perhaps,- the date of 1850 in Persian calendar Jalali.

mariusgmioc · 18th September 2019, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

So, one thing is clear: the etching was made by a Farsi-speaking person. Whether he was an itinerant master from Iran or a Persianized Afghani is unclear. In any case, it may explain the human figure and ,- perhaps,- the date of 1850 in Persian calendar Jalali.

I beg to differ! Nothing is clear. The one who made the etching could have been simply copying it 1:1 from somewhere else.

Jim McDougall · 18th September 2019, 08:25 PM

I think this is a strong case, again, for this weapon bearing a commemorative inscription. While the original text or example of the wording being copied was possibly (or more likely) to have been applied by someone not necessarily fluent or even familiar with the Farsi language, it does suggest the intent.
The individual applying the wording to the host weapon, by the crude character of the motif, certainly was not a master craftsman of Persia or anywhere for that matter. However, it seems a sincere attempt to portray a traditional or highly held wording of Farsi, as noted.

Inscriptions in these languages and phrases surely have been used on other Khyber's of course, but the use of acid etching is unusual as we have discussed.

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15th September 2019, 11:53 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The beautiful one on the front cover of the “ Afghani edged weapons” book is Indian. Fiegels’ sale catalogue has a couple of Persian. I have one with deep old Indian chiseling ( thanks, Jens) and another potentially Indian with elephant ivory handle and sophisticated wootz blade. But we are talking about Afghanistan proper , and most khybers in use there will be of local manufacture. It’s like seeing more Fords than Fiats and Alfa Romeos in America. But move to Italy, and the proportions will flip. And, of course, their occurrence in neighboring countries is likely to be largely limited to ethic Afghans, such as Khyber Pakhtunhwa in contemporary Pakistan, formerly part of India.

16th September 2019, 10:46 AM	#3
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I'd like to clarify a little bit the words of the Ariel. Indeed, there are many Khyber knives made in India or by Indian craftsmen in Afghanistan. Such Khyber knives can be seen in large quantities in museums in India. But! Khyber knives, which we could call "Persian" (made in Persia or by Persian masters in Afghanistan) are known very little...

16th September 2019, 05:02 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,571	Dima thank you for this information and clarification! I truly did not know of these Khyber swords being made in India, but I can understand that there must have been Indian craftsmen in Afghan regions who might make them. As you well note, the idea of these often very large bladed Khyber swords being made in Persia seems very unlikely, just as the idea of Persian craftsmen in Afghanistan seems remote. It seems well established of course that artisans of regions often move to other areas, and in doing so take their skills and styling character with them of course. It makes sense that obviously these styles, techniques and character would in degree become melded together in the examples they produced. I think the objective of recognizing the possibility of this particular Khyber being one of these hybrids, or accounting for its unusual decoration is well at hand here. As far as I can see however, is that this example in the original post is of the commonly seen versions produced in the typical manner in Khyber regions, rather than one produced in these other areas noted. We return to the very crudely applied acid etched decoration. We know that this technique was used in Persia, and by its craftsmen. It is possible that this technique, which became it seems more widely practiced in latter part of 19th c. (thinking of the Sudanese thuluth case) may have been carried into many regions by craftsmen relocating. I think its crudely applied character of the decoration here, which has been the primary point of contention, pretty much renders the possibility of being done by a skilled craftsman unlikely, particularly Persian. The likelihood of the scenario proposed by Ed, a copied theme added by a tribal artisan representing local traditions or events is far more plausible.

18th September 2019, 06:57 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Update: One of the " translators" sent me a message: this is written in ancient variant of Farsi, but the quality of deep etching is very poor, the letters flow into each other. She could translate only a small fragment:" ...the king gave advice to his son..." She is taking it to her parents ; perhaps, they might be more successful, but I doubt more and more that translation may give us any specific information: Persians were fond of general statements of literary origin inscribed on their blades. I have a Khyber with rhino handle and 4 rivets (2-1-1); the upper 2 used to be "big" , but the washers were lost. It is inscribed in old Persian with a quote from Sa'adi's " Golestan ( 13 century). Central Asia ( Bukhara, Khiva, Samarkand)? Northern Afghanistan? Iran proper? So, one thing is clear: the etching was made by a Farsi-speaking person. Whether he was an itinerant master from Iran or a Persianized Afghani is unclear. In any case, it may explain the human figure and ,- perhaps,- the date of 1850 in Persian calendar Jalali.

18th September 2019, 08:25 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,571	I think this is a strong case, again, for this weapon bearing a commemorative inscription. While the original text or example of the wording being copied was possibly (or more likely) to have been applied by someone not necessarily fluent or even familiar with the Farsi language, it does suggest the intent. The individual applying the wording to the host weapon, by the crude character of the motif, certainly was not a master craftsman of Persia or anywhere for that matter. However, it seems a sincere attempt to portray a traditional or highly held wording of Farsi, as noted. Inscriptions in these languages and phrases surely have been used on other Khyber's of course, but the use of acid etching is unusual as we have discussed.