Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 17th August 2019, 05:05 PM   #1
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,630
Default

SOME MORE PICS...........
Attached Images
      
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2019, 05:15 PM   #2
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
SOME MORE PICS...........
Woaw Rick this is a masterpiece!!!
The same barrels are on the abufitila Omani matchlocks and according to Elgood they are Persians...
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th August 2019, 05:36 PM   #3
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,200
Default

Rick, this topic has indeed become totally fascinating with this thread, and thanks to you and the guys who have brought your experience, examples and expertise into these pages. For me it has been an entire learning curve, and actually it was my goal to learn more on these after I finally found one!
I hoped that this discussion would not only become a kind of resource for material and observations on these guns, but increase awareness of them in the collectors field, and that has definitely been achieved thanks to you guys.

It does seem like the character of these jezails indeed represents that of 'frontier weapons', that is arms which are often, if not typically, assembled with composite components and locally made elements bringing them together.
With the formidable reputation of the jezail itself as a deadly weapon with the skills of both the artisans crafting them and the tribesmen using them, it would seem the British locks became the standard for that particular element.

While the locks themselves seem to have been in abundant supply, the tribal armourers of course learned to duplicate the markings of British EIC locks in degree. Naturally these were more crudely applied and unawareness of the proper associations of the markings' purpose led to incongruent combinations such as VR (Queen Victoria) with 1815 date or similar pairings.
It seems like even when markings were worn off, there were even attempts to 'touch them up'. It is as if the markings themselves carried some sort of imbuement to the power or quality of the weapon.

As you have noted, the possibility of export of these locks into these regions by vendors dealing with the EIC for specific trade with tribal groups is a distinct possibility. There were many instances of such 'private enterprise' with arms in India before and during the 'Raj', and while most weapons filtered through government channels for forces there, there are many cases where items were sent there outside these administrative venues.

I agree with Kubur, this example you have posted with the wonderfully marked lock, the maker who seems well represented in these, and especially that fantastic barrel!! This example perfectly illustrates the kind of comprehensive quality of these guns quintessentially !!

Stu, thank you for that link.....I had no idea of Cornwallis involved with EIC. Naturally we know him well in the US from our Revolutionary War history but totally unaware of his extended career into EIC.
Jim McDougall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th August 2019, 05:40 PM   #4
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,630
Default

Hi Kubur

Very observant of you. LOL I feel confident that the barrel started life mounted to an Omani matchlock. It's style and proportions are identical. I need to remove the lock and study the area around the vent hole. The Omani matchlock barrels had their priming pan mounted integral with the barrel. There should be evidence of the original priming pan having been cut off/removed for reuse with a flintlock.
Again, more evidence of reuse of a barrel from a different gun from a different location.

Meantime, here is one more from my collection. The lock on this one is another genuine EIC lock marked WRIGHT, and dated 1803. The barrel is somewhat of a mystery. It reminds me somewhat of the Torador style barrels from Northern India, but lacks the swollen breech area common with those barrels. At some point, the barrel looks like it was subjected to a harsh chemical cleaning. Which probably erased any evidence of damascus pattern. Too bad. I'll have to take the barrel off and study the breech plug area to confirm my initial guess. But I do have a latter period munitions grade Torador with a broken stock that has a very similar barrel. I need to study this gun further also. The trigger guard and front sling swivel (which would have been made from horn in this instance) are missing. As well, the wood ramrod is a modern replacement. Yet another project. LOL

Rick
Attached Images
      
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th August 2019, 08:11 PM   #5
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,200
Default

Rick, you have a truly amazing collection, and your observations and insights are great as I try to learn more on these Afghan guns. As noted, with the EIC locks invariably used on these, it is important to understand as much as possible on the dynamics of EIC supply and how these components filtered into Afghan armorers hands.

It would seem that a primary source of many guns and components were probably attained during the First Anglo-Afghan war 1839-42 where forces of primarily EIC native troops and numbers of British units invaded Afghan regions. There were staggering numbers of the EIC guns about, particularly in the disastrous retreat from Kabul to Jallalabad, where over 4000 troops (and over 12,000 civilians) were killed or died in the trek through terrible winter conditions. Only one medical officer survived.
The weapons from these forces must have provided huge numbers of parts as well as others supplied in subsequent years.

While we assume that many of the locks on these jezails were often misjoined and duplicated by native tribal armourers, while it seems that in actuality there may have been certain curious alignments in the production of the India pattern guns before they even got to India.

Apparently the lock plates themselves were fashioned by makers in the Wolverhampton area of Birmingham, while hammers etc. were produced by other vendors. Then the entire guns were assembled by other producers and proved. With these dynamics it is easy to see where certain anomalies might occur, and trying to set exact dates for changes very difficult. One thing emphasized was that the EIC weapons seemed to have carried a higher quality standard, for example using the bun type hammer screw which strengthened the shaft of the tumbler.

Putting together these kinds of particulars I think will be important to better understanding the locks used in these jezails, and apparently reused over generations.
Jim McDougall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2019, 05:17 PM   #6
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,630
Default

Hi Jim

Thanks for your kind comments. One thing I find amazing is the volume of original (non-tourist) specimens still available today. They show up at auctions and websites all over North America and Europe. This, along with other reference material leads me to believe these Afghan style Jezails must have experienced a sort of renaissance type period along the frontier. Maybe from about 1790 to say 1860 in both flintlock and eventual percussion variations. We then see the use of the 1853 British Enfield style rifled muskets and their later Snider conversions, and eventually the Martini-Henry (of which many local copies were made).
The locally made flintlock locks on most I've examined generally copy the Third Model British/EIC lock pattern. The percussion locks somewhat copy the British Enfield pattern percussion locks. The fact that locally made copies of these locks were made would appear to be evidence that the local demand for these Jazails exceeded the supply of readily available British/European made locks.

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2019, 10:51 PM   #7
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,786
Default Some Frontier History

Hi Jim,
Though not entirely related to Jezails, but including some information about them, is this link placed on the current Martini Henry thread. I thought it of interest as it tells of arms smuggling to the Frontier during the 19th and 20th centuries. Interesting reading IMHO.
https://www.thefridaytimes.com/gunru...crash-of-1910/
Further, the map shows that Baluchistan and Afghanistan were originally next door to each other, which would also explain why the Jezail and "Sindi" guns were both described as Afghani.

I wonder if what we collectors have called "Sindi" guns should more correctly be called Baluch......food for thought.

Just as an observation....in the first pic both the long guns shown are matchlocks, while the guy on the right has what appears to be a percussion pistol tucked into his belt.

Stu
Attached Images
  

Last edited by kahnjar1; 27th August 2019 at 08:10 PM.
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th August 2019, 08:11 AM   #8
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,200
Default

Ricky,
It truly is amazing how many non tourist items there really are, and it is hard to imagine the volume of these guns made through the years that ended up stashed away for countless years. I know that a arms collections themselves can end up stashed away for generations, and ultimately end up being revealed and of course sold off.

In my early fascination with "King of the Khyber Rifles" (uh, many many moons ago, the movie was 1953!!) and I got caught up in researching it all in the 80s. I was intrigued by the 'Khyber Rifles' unit, and pretty much wanted to have a progressive grouping of the guns they used. I got the Snider Enfield and Martini Henry OK, but it wasn't til earlier this month I finally got a jezail.

Stu,
Excellent article!! and great insight into the dynamics of the gun trade in these regions, which really explains a lot.
These 'borders' were exceptionally diaphanous in the 19th century, and even more so were tribal territories so it is quite understandable how the terms Sindhi, Baluch and Afghan became often interpolated or collectively used.
Thanks very much for the great input.
Interesting on the photo to see matchlocks in parallel to percussion !

Thanks guys,
Jim
Jim McDougall is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.