Origin of maker´s stamp on this yatagan

Martin Lubojacky · 7th August 2019, 05:31 PM

Thank you Kronckew, the most similar is No 27, but with longer protruberances.
Thank you also for the nice compact summarization of the expansion of this style of blade in ancient times. I meant relatively recent times (like 19. and beginning of 20. century). Are there recurved yatagan like blades in Iran and Afganistan in this recent time period ? Not my field, but since I remember well recurved blades from 19/20 century discussed here were either yatagans (from anywhere) or Indian (Pakistan ?) swords ...

Martin Lubojacky · 7th August 2019, 05:42 PM

Kubur, thank you ! But it is different - there is no beak on the handle of my yatagan. Enclosed please find cut-out from my previous picture.

kronckew · 7th August 2019, 07:15 PM

Excellent Yataghan, the Rhino horn grip sets it a cut above the rest.

So many different Yats, so few years and little money to collect them....

sfenoid13 · 8th August 2019, 06:51 AM

This is somewhat a unique form of Yatagan but not uncommon. This type originated from the Caucasus regions, Georgia or even Black Sea region. I have seen many examples in Turkey and I actually have one very similar to this one. The handle although broken is not the typical eared shape like most yatahans but rather a big Black Sea knife /dagger handle made of horn. This type of yatagans are usually heavy with larger than normal blades. Also very well forged steel blades are usually stamped rather than being etched or written on with silver or gold. The stamps are reminiscent or Georgian kindjlas or even Quaddaras. Beautiful and functional Yatagan.

sfenoid13 · 8th August 2019, 06:55 AM

See a similar example.(mine)

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2019, 07:06 AM

This is definitely not a typical blade.

Just have a look at the small double groove near the edge of the blade. Also the hollow grounding starting after about 15 cm from the very simple and atypical front bolster.

Last, but not least, even the maker's mark is very unusual and different from other known Turkish or Balkan examples.

To me, all these point to the direction that this blade was not made in any of the traditional Yatagan making centres. Neither Turkey, nor the Balkans.

My hunch would be Russian or European made blade.

The same goes for the Yatagan in posting #18. For this example, I noticed it bears the same maker's mark as the blade from the last photo of posting #6. That also is definitely not a typical Ottoman bolster.

sfenoid13 · 8th August 2019, 07:17 AM

Agreed! The handle is more like #24

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

This is definitely not a typical blade.

Just have a look at the small double groove near the edge of the blade. Also the hollow grounding starting after about 15 cm from the very simple and atypical front bolster.

Last, but not least, even the maker's mark is very unusual and different from other known Turkish or Balkan examples.

To me, all these point to the direction that this blade was not made in any of the traditional Yatagan making centres. Neither Turkey, nor the Balkans.

My hunch would be Russian or European made blade.

The same goes for the Yatagan in posting #18. For this example, I noticed it bears the same maker's mark as the blade from the last photo of posting #6. That also is definitely not a typical Ottoman bolster.

sfenoid13 · 8th August 2019, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

Kubur, thank you ! But it is different - there is no beak on the handle of my yatagan. Enclosed please find cut-out from my previous picture.

By looking at this picture again in better light it’s clear that the handle and the bolster are both later replacements , done in Turkey. Repairs are probably not too old .

Kubur · 8th August 2019, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

By looking at this picture again in better light it’s clear that the handle and the bolster are both later replacements , done in Turkey. Repairs are probably not too old .

Why? I'm interested to know... Could you explain? Thanks

Martin Lubojacky · 8th August 2019, 08:30 AM

Sfenoid13, you probably have good eyes, so just to avoid misunderstandings:
Bolster on one side was missing - and so it was completed after the acquisition (BTW by the skilled Turkish craftsmen, in this field). I am not sure if it is the one on the picture or not. In any case, it is exactly - really exactly the same like the original one (which is on another side ?).

The horn handle is old and used, it could be original.

Maybe crazy idea (?), but I would not reject the possibility of (butch) production of this big blades for the Ottoman or Turkish Army at the turn of the 19/20 centuries or during and after the 1st World War (twenties) ... But I have no information about this

sfenoid13 · 8th August 2019, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Why? I'm interested to know... Could you explain? Thanks

The handle type as it appears from the photos seems to be one with very small ears, evern it’s broken, you can see the shape is kind of a like T, very small but still kind of a T. This is the preferred type of replacement many repaired Yatagans have. I might be wrong but it’s just a gut thing after seeing so many Yatagans, original and repaired ones. The bolsters are both replacements, one may be and sneer replacement that the other, agains based on the shape andaso the fit and finish. This type of Yatagans tend to have a straight edge bolster, again based on the examples I have seen. I am not expert and these are just based on my opinions based on a couple of bad pictures of the particular Yatahan without being able to see it in person. By the way I also believe the blade is highly polished , not the original finish. It still looks nice but I’m sure you will agree it is polished more recently.

kronckew · 9th August 2019, 08:08 AM

I would think a victorious army after a battle would have a number of weapons for the armourers to repair, they would likely not take the time for artistry and would be as simple and quick as possible, and would cut back any broken grip ears and round off the stumps, matching as close as the remnants allow on both sides, to get it functional & back to it's owner ASAP before the next engagement. Which they then lost & it was taken as a trophy.

Martin Lubojacky · 9th August 2019, 08:29 AM

Sfenoid13, Thank you for your opinion re. Georgian and/or Black See origin and picture of your yatagan with a very similar blade. Blade of your yatagan is very similar.
The blade of my yatagan was rusty. Unfortunately it was that kind of difficult rust, which is not covering the blade of the yatagan evenly (I mean there were isles of the very nice and smooth original surface and isles of rust, sometimes going deep). The steel is hard and also the rust was somehow "stony". I was doing my best to remove the rust and not to damage the blade and to save the uniform look of the surface of the blade at the same time. I think that the kind of "polishing" was necessary, in the final stage. But it was not classical polishing - t The picture also reflects bad light conditions.

Saracen · 14th August 2019, 11:00 AM

T-shaped handle - zeybek yatagan

8th August 2019, 06:55 AM	#5
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	See a similar example.(mine) Attached Images

14th August 2019, 11:00 AM	#14
Saracen Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 147	T-shaped handle - zeybek yatagan Attached Images

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7th August 2019, 05:31 PM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Thank you Kronckew, the most similar is No 27, but with longer protruberances. Thank you also for the nice compact summarization of the expansion of this style of blade in ancient times. I meant relatively recent times (like 19. and beginning of 20. century). Are there recurved yatagan like blades in Iran and Afganistan in this recent time period ? Not my field, but since I remember well recurved blades from 19/20 century discussed here were either yatagans (from anywhere) or Indian (Pakistan ?) swords ...

7th August 2019, 05:42 PM	#2
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Kubur, thank you ! But it is different - there is no beak on the handle of my yatagan. Enclosed please find cut-out from my previous picture. Attached Images

7th August 2019, 07:15 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	Excellent Yataghan, the Rhino horn grip sets it a cut above the rest. So many different Yats, so few years and little money to collect them....

8th August 2019, 06:51 AM	#4
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	This is somewhat a unique form of Yatagan but not uncommon. This type originated from the Caucasus regions, Georgia or even Black Sea region. I have seen many examples in Turkey and I actually have one very similar to this one. The handle although broken is not the typical eared shape like most yatahans but rather a big Black Sea knife /dagger handle made of horn. This type of yatagans are usually heavy with larger than normal blades. Also very well forged steel blades are usually stamped rather than being etched or written on with silver or gold. The stamps are reminiscent or Georgian kindjlas or even Quaddaras. Beautiful and functional Yatagan.

8th August 2019, 07:06 AM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	This is definitely not a typical blade. Just have a look at the small double groove near the edge of the blade. Also the hollow grounding starting after about 15 cm from the very simple and atypical front bolster. Last, but not least, even the maker's mark is very unusual and different from other known Turkish or Balkan examples. To me, all these point to the direction that this blade was not made in any of the traditional Yatagan making centres. Neither Turkey, nor the Balkans. My hunch would be Russian or European made blade. The same goes for the Yatagan in posting #18. For this example, I noticed it bears the same maker's mark as the blade from the last photo of posting #6. That also is definitely not a typical Ottoman bolster. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 8th August 2019 at 07:51 AM.

8th August 2019, 08:30 AM	#10
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Sfenoid13, you probably have good eyes, so just to avoid misunderstandings: Bolster on one side was missing - and so it was completed after the acquisition (BTW by the skilled Turkish craftsmen, in this field). I am not sure if it is the one on the picture or not. In any case, it is exactly - really exactly the same like the original one (which is on another side ?). The horn handle is old and used, it could be original. Maybe crazy idea (?), but I would not reject the possibility of (butch) production of this big blades for the Ottoman or Turkish Army at the turn of the 19/20 centuries or during and after the 1st World War (twenties) ... But I have no information about this

9th August 2019, 08:08 AM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	I would think a victorious army after a battle would have a number of weapons for the armourers to repair, they would likely not take the time for artistry and would be as simple and quick as possible, and would cut back any broken grip ears and round off the stumps, matching as close as the remnants allow on both sides, to get it functional & back to it's owner ASAP before the next engagement. Which they then lost & it was taken as a trophy.

9th August 2019, 08:29 AM	#13
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Sfenoid13, Thank you for your opinion re. Georgian and/or Black See origin and picture of your yatagan with a very similar blade. Blade of your yatagan is very similar. The blade of my yatagan was rusty. Unfortunately it was that kind of difficult rust, which is not covering the blade of the yatagan evenly (I mean there were isles of the very nice and smooth original surface and isles of rust, sometimes going deep). The steel is hard and also the rust was somehow "stony". I was doing my best to remove the rust and not to damage the blade and to save the uniform look of the surface of the blade at the same time. I think that the kind of "polishing" was necessary, in the final stage. But it was not classical polishing - t The picture also reflects bad light conditions.