Origin of this Yataghan? (With pictures!)

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by TVV

The style of the blade, with the upturned tip is also a Cretan and Greek characteristic. So based on this, it seems most likely that this yataghan was made in Greece. Where it was used and subsequently rehilted is hard to tell, at least for me, but at least we can make an educated guess on where it was originally produced.
Teodor

MMMMm i would like to believe you but i don't know where you got your information's. Please look at a reference book like Arms of Greece and you will see that it's not true. Books are always the answer. If someone can translate Russian we will see, maybe Teodor is right...

Second point for Kelhben here is a list of stamps similars to yours.

Kubur

[Kubur]

Maybe this one

[ariel]

I also agree with Teodor: rehilted Cretan yataghan.
As to attributing it to the Ottoman Empire, let’s not forget that in the early 19 century Balkans, Crete, Greece were all parts of it.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Kubur

MMMMm i would like to believe you but i don't know where you got your information's. Please look at a reference book like Arms of Greece and you will see that it's not true. Books are always the answer. If someone can translate Russian we will see, maybe Teodor is right...

Second point for Kelhben here is a list of stamps similars to yours.

Kubur

Astvatsaturian attributes these to Eastern Anatolia, based on the niello and similarities to niello decoration on arms from Georgia. It is a book full of great pictures, but the conclusions are based on the author's guesses, which she admits herself in the book. Not being able to read Russian does not really detract much, to be honest.

In Elgood's book I do not recall yataghans with this shape to the bolster as attributed to areas outside of Greece, and there are plenty of examples in the chapter dedicated to arms associated with the Greek War of Independence. But it would be a good idea for me to go through the book again.

Teo

[TVV]

Looking through Elgood's book, in the chapter on yataghans on p. 146, figure 167 shows a yataghan with a similar bolster described by Elgood as originating from Crete or Southern Greece. He does not show that many yataghans of this type, unfortunately - the other one in the same chapter just has a date, no attribution. Lord Byron had a smaller dagger of the same type.

Teodor

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by TVV

Looking through Elgood's book, in the chapter on yataghans on p. 146, figure 167 shows a yataghan with a similar bolster described by Elgood as originating from Crete or Southern Greece. He does not show that many yataghans of this type, unfortunately - the other one in the same chapter just has a date, no attribution. Lord Byron had a smaller dagger of the same type.

Teodor

Precisely there is nothing in this chapter to support your assumption on the blade or even the bolster...
I'm ready to be convinced and to change my mind just give me something solid.

[mariusgmioc]

Don't we have any Turkish forum members with access to Turkish bibliography?

I wonder what happened to Zifir?!

[TVV]

For the benefit of Khelben and anyone else who does not have access to Elgood's "The Arms of Greece" here is the page, which shows a yataghan of the distinct style in question, identified as Cretan/South-Western Greek.

Teodor

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by TVV

For the benefit of Khelben and anyone else who does not have access to Elgood's "The Arms of Greece" here is the page, which shows a yataghan of the distinct style in question, identified as Cretan/South-Western Greek.

Teodor

Please note that Elgood says "probably"...

Moreover, as I said after reading his book (I think there is a thread with comments on his book) on the arms of Greece, most if not all the attributions of origin in his book are purely anecdotal. He does not explain why a certain piece may be from one place and not from another and is quite silent about the features that characterise each area.

So I cannot consider Elgood's book as a reference!

However, movement of wares and skills was so wide in the Ottomoan empire that in most cases it will be impossibe to establish with a reasonable level of certainty the origin of some pieces.

Dubito ergo cogito...

[ariel]

Kubur,
Yataghans, with the exception of Zeibek ones, cannot be attributed by their blades. The latter were produced en masse in unknown centers in Anatolia and the Balkans. Sarajevo is perhaps the only known Bosnian center and the Bulgarian origin of some can be tentatively suspected by their modest appearance . From there they were sold all over the Empire. You may want to re-read Elgood for the descriptions of trade. The blades were then dressed according to local tastes and that usually serves as the only more or less reliable identifier.

If you can provide an unbeatable system of localizing the origin of yataghan blades, you will deserve our undying gratitude. Meanwhile, we shall stick to the decorations, fully understanding their tentative value. We cannot do better than that. Help us. The ball is in your court.

[ariel]

Teodor,
Precisely.
The art of niello , according to Circassian master Asia Eutykh, was brought to Caucasus by the Greeks. She traces her name to somebody names Eutyhios.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ariel

Kubur,
Yataghans, with the exception of Zeibek ones, cannot be attributed by their blades. The latter were produced en masse in unknown centers in Anatolia and the Balkans. Sarajevo is perhaps the only known Bosnian center and the Bulgarian origin of some can be tentatively suspected by their modest appearance . From there they were sold all over the Empire. You may want to re-read Elgood for the descriptions of trade. The blades were then dressed according to local tastes and that usually serves as the only more or less reliable identifier.

If you can provide an unbeatable system of localizing the origin of yataghan blades, you will deserve our undying gratitude. Meanwhile, we shall stick to the decorations, fully understanding their tentative value. We cannot do better than that. Help us. The ball is in your court.

Teodor so you are saying that your attribution based on the blade shape is not a proof. It is the reason why i like this forum but i generaly avoid endless debates, for me its game over. You dont have any proof that this yataghan is Greek.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Teodor so you are saying that your attribution based on the blade shape is not a proof. It is the reason why i like this forum but i generaly avoid endless debates, for me its game over. You dont have any proof that this yataghan is Greek.

I think you are confusing my and Ariel's responses.

My purpose here is not to convince anyone of anything or "win" debates. It was to answer Khelben's inquiry, based on the information I have at hand. I completely agree with you that the study or antique arms and armor is not an exact science, when it comes to regional and ethnic attribution. That being said, to me, these yataghans are Greek based on Elgood's attribution and their appearance in Greek context (as opposed to Bulgarian, Bosnian, etc.). If you disagree with the Greek attribution, this is perfectly fine, but it would be nice to produce evidence supporting a different attribution, for the education of everyone here.

[ariel]

Astvatsaturian’s book is based exclusively on the materials from the State Historical Museum ( Kremlin) and, in a smaller part, from St. Petersburg collection ( Hermitage? I am too lazy to check her book). She tried to develop systematic classification of yataghan origins based on decorative elements. But the final product reminded the tongue-in cheek passage from the Borges’ scheme allegedly taken from an ancient Chinese manuscript about classification of animals: “ those belonging to the Emperor, suckling pigs, frenzied, sirens, fabulous , etc...”
Really good specialists lived in Istanbul’s Topkapi and Askeri Muze, and in Yugoslavia. But she could not go there: Turkey was a NATO country and Yugoslavian Tito professed independent view of socialism, being a traitor of Lenin-Stalin’s dogma. Thus, for example, anything with niello was viewed by her as coming from Eastern Anatolia due to her belief that Soviet Caucasus was the cradle of niello-ed silver ( like the current example). Maria Shercer and Dora
Boscovich could have educated her , but... alas, trip to Tito’s lair of anti-Soviet ideology was out of the question.


On top of that, Astvatsaturian did not know foreign languages and her transliteration of foreign names of weapons was pathetic in its ignorance. There were independent sabers klych and klykh, mech and megg etc. She was a talented , productive and dedicated historian of weapons but she had a misfortune of living and working in a wrong country. Her book about more familiar subject, i. e. Caucasian weapons, is a masterpiece however.

In her defense, even contemporary Turkish books, such as Yasar’s “ Yataghans” are just as bad: every example there is labeled as just “Ottoman” :-)