Indonesian pedang for identification

[Sajen]

Here the promised comparison with a co jang from my collection. Please excuse the quality but I think that the different is visible.

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, I can see a massive difference in quality, and a difference in hilt style, but in overall blade style I can see no real difference at all. Over many years I've had a number of these things, all with the same overall blade style, but with a very wide range of qualities. I think I've only ever had one that was of similar quality to the better one in your comparison picture, most of what I've had has been just "household tool" stuff, nothing special at all, but a couple of those very ordinary pieces were very definitely from Northern Sumatera.

Maybe the rudus or cojang name is a quality designation as well as just an identifier, maybe the same object but of a lower quality has a different name.

I believe I was the first person in the field of edge weapons to coin the term "The Name Game" I've been using it for more than 50 years, and I don't think I ever heard anybody use it before me. Every time I see a situation where we try to define S.E. Asian objects --- not just weapons, but objects --- by using names that we do not understand, that same phrase runs through my mind.

Kai,, your comment:-

While Sumatra is famous for its bifurcated horn hilts, this type is none of those.

it is a regrettable fact of life that not every hilt was made by the same person, living in the same place, at the same time, and from the same material.

If we live outside of a society, and in a different period, the best we can access is a tiny sample of total production of anything. Tiny samples of anything are useless for the purpose of forming supportable opinions. We might be able to hypothesise upon the basis of small, isolated samples, but in the case of tools, or weapons, where most people make their own hilts and scabbards, and only follow a general overall pattern --- if they follow any pattern at all --- how is it possible to acknowledge that an overall pattern applies to a particular location, but because of detail it cannot possibly be from that location?

Not everything in this world fits into its own nice, neat, little box, particularly so in the region that we are now concerned with.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

our posts crossed.

Not everything in this world fits into its own nice, neat, little box, particularly so in the region that we are now concerned with.

D'accord. There sure are ensembles of mixed origins and often enough the hilt and scabbard will be considerably younger than the blade and at best represent the culture where the blade got used before it moved overseas to Europe/etc. And, yes, blades got traded widely or got captured; and people moved all over the place. Yup, granted.

it is a regrettable fact of life that not every hilt was made by the same person, living in the same place, at the same time, and from the same material.

If we live outside of a society, and in a different period, the best we can access is a tiny sample of total production of anything. Tiny samples of anything are useless for the purpose of forming supportable opinions. We might be able to hypothesise upon the basis of small, isolated samples, but in the case of tools, or weapons, where most people make their own hilts and scabbards, and only follow a general overall pattern --- if they follow any pattern at all --- how is it possible to acknowledge that an overall pattern applies to a particular location, but because of detail it cannot possibly be from that location?

Often enough this may not be possible, indeed.

However, by concentrating on (often minute) details, it often is possible to narrow down the origin of a given hilt or scabbard. Just like for an experienced kerisophile like you, it is often possible to narrow down the origin of a keris blade which less experienced folks won't be able to form any well-founded opinion on.

I realize why most collectors will first think of northern Sumatra. I've examined a fair share of Sumatran blades with special attention to Aceh, Gayo, Alas, Karo, Pakpak, Toba, etc. - trust me, no part of this ensemble is Sumatran...

Regards,
Kai