On the Flyssa

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Jim,

Again you used your little trick to open a new thread...
The knife that you posted is very interesting. To me it's an Algerian Ottoman kard and the date was added later (the date is very eary i wonder if it's a commemorative date).

Kubur

You know me too well Kubur! Actually I did want to reopen dialogue on the flyssa with a synopsis of what we have determined thus far, after many years of discussions. The knife noted I thought was interesting with its resounding 'flyssa' character, and this inscription , which I agree seems to be of a commemorative nature. While tempting to suggest early Italian association with the form, naturally the Ottoman source for the form is pretty well established.
It simply seemed worthy of note, and may well be an Italian interpretation of the flyssa form along with other dagger types perhaps created later.

[motan]

Hi,
I want to offer a different interpretation for the Napoli dagger, though I admit it is both a long shot and disappointing.
To me, this looks like a fantasy piece because it is supposedly made in Naples, but clearly made in the Greek/Ottoman 19th c style. If you look at the date, as far as this picture allows close inspection, I see 1334, not 1774. My guess is that this is Hijri date corresponding to 1915/1916. I have no idea why: an orientalist interpretation for rarities cabinet? a dagger made for a Muslim merchant in his favorite style? All pure guesses. But the blade of this dagger does not look functional and the Greek connection is clear.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by motan

Hi,
I want to offer a different interpretation for the Napoli dagger, though I admit it is both a long shot and disappointing.
To me, this looks like a fantasy piece because it is supposedly made in Naples, but clearly made in the Greek/Ottoman 19th c style. If you look at the date, as far as this picture allows close inspection, I see 1334, not 1774. My guess is that this is Hijri date corresponding to 1915/1916. I have no idea why: an orientalist interpretation for rarities cabinet? a dagger made for a Muslim merchant in his favorite style? All pure guesses. But the blade of this dagger does not look functional and the Greek connection is clear.

Hi Motan,

You are absolutely right on two points.
First the date presented is wrong and I can read too 1334.
Second the flyssa blade similarity is also incorrect and it's more a yataghanish type blade.
Then I was wrong to propose an Algerian origin (now there is no clear evidence for this).
I'm not convinced by a Greek origin either. Let's say Balkans or Turkish.
I don't think that it was a fantasy piece, I prefer to say a very late Ottoman piece or an early tourist piece in the Ottoman style. These pieces have been discussed in previous posts... Please note that early tourist pieces use generally Gregorian calendar and this one is using hijri (with latin numbers like the 1920ties Moroccan pieces)...
...

Kubur

[motan]

Hi Kubur,
Yes, I can agree with that. West-Ottoman, Balkan (Northern Greece is Balkan) may be more precise. Those deep engravings of plant motifs in silver can be either, as well as the small, Yataghan-like ears on the pommel. The only reason I decided to call it Greek was the way the inscription is framed, which is common in late Cretan and Greek daggers. The designation fantasy is a bit harsh and I agree with your description.
Unfortunately, this kind of late piece can not contribute to solving the mystery of the Flyssa and its origin.
As for the use of the Flyssa, I believe that tradition, ethnic identity and symbolism were more important that function in shaping ethnographic weapons. But if you had to use one, then stabbing looks like the only reasonable option. These are heavy weapons with a long and narrow point, so any slashing or cutting movements would be very impractical.

[Jim McDougall]

Guys, these are absolutely brilliant observations!! and I honestly did not see that date, nor apparently did Boccia & Coelho in their entry in "Armi Bianche Italiene" (or perhaps they did but I assumed, as my Italian is 'nada').

I had presumed this might be a viable clue as to flyssa development, but clearly (oops!).

Kubur, I don't think your Algerian suggestion was misplaced, and was reasonably deduced, but the Ottoman denominator can be safely applied broadly and to include the Balkan regions. I also disagree with this being a tourist item as per your notes on the Hijra date (1334=1915). The idea of some commemorative date on an authentically fashioned dagger seems most likely, and as well observed, has nothing to do with flyssa development.

Thank you both for the well explained and appropriately placed correction, well done and much appreciated.

Jim

[ariel]

If we are sill talking about a flissa dagger marked “Napoli”, there is no need to postulate Ottoman or Greek roots.
There was an old Neapolitan cutler dynasty named Labruna. In the mid- 19 century Giuseppe Labruna produced high end regulation swords for the military, but his forte was Ottoman weapons. He even made yataghans for Austro-Hungarian Croat Pandours. Thus, a flissa would not be a surprise. My bet is that if this flissa dagger could be carefully examined, there might be even his stamp. His descendants continued into the 20 century, but this is too new for me and I do not know the details about them.

[Kubur]

Thank you Jim, you're a wise man and a gentleman as always!

Ariel I think you nailed it. Just for comparison the French Bichaqs made by Manceaux, Paris sold by Oriental arms...

Best,
Kubur