Jamdhar katari - a theory

[ariel]

I am with Fernando.
Mahratta irregular cavalry was a very disorganized bunch: none of the British Light Brigade iron discipline or Mongolian tightly coordinated feint attacks. They just rode full gallop without any order, clashed with the opposing force , slashed two or three times , and turned back full speed. Their mass-produced Patas ( Portuguese “paws”? Fernando, how am I doing?) were very flexible , designed to slash and bounce, distantly reminiscent of South Indian/ Sri Lankan Urumi.
My Pata is so flexible, that if an opponent tries to parry the cut with his sword, my blade will just bend around it and hit him behind the block.

These attacks must have left behind very few dead , but multiple wounded and disabled men and horses.

[ariel]

This particular name game ( jamadhar vs. katar) is not very productive unless based on extremely thorough knowledge of Great Indian linguistics.
Currently, Indian government accepts 22 official languages and 6 special ones. Overall, there are 122 major languages, and 1599 “other” languages.
Thirty languages are spoken by more than a million “native speakers”, and 122 by more than 10,000. How many simply vanished over the past 1000 years is a scary thought.

Different weapons might have been given similarly sounding names and same weapons - differently sounding ones. Mysore/ Haiderabadi Bich’hwa, Baku from Kannada and Marathi Vinchu - are the same weapon. So is Jamdhar and Katar, but in different locations. Add to it transliterations by the British: Seilawa in Afghanistan and sailaba in Deccan, - almost identical weapons, but the former one became known as Khyber knife, and the latter is so esoteric, that only devoted readers of Elgood’s Glossary know what it means.

These questions must be left to professional linguists who, on top of their deep knowledge of languages, are thoroughly familiar with long and complicated history of India, population migrations, conquests, subjugations etc., as well as with weapons themselves. This is a tall order, but anything less than that will only lead to embarrassing “ discoveries” . We have had some of those published here and that’s enough already.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

Their mass-produced Patas ( Portuguese “paws”? Fernando, how am I doing?) were very flexible , designed to slash and bounce, distantly reminiscent of South Indian/ Sri Lankan Urumi...

Well said Ariel ... the translation, but not the attribution, i am afraid.
I would rather tend to the version in which the patá (पट) comes from the "Pathans, a subdivision of the Kchatrya cast, or Indian warriors, devoted to military life, in his fatherland as in other nations" (Friar Sebastião Manrique 1590 -1669). But i wouldn't put my hand on the chopping block for that ... even my (already) chopped off one .

[Jens Nordlunde]

Are we now discussing patas, should they not be discussed on another thread?

[fernando]

Don't get upset Jens; diverting a bit doesn't hurt ! We are still in Indian weapons .
Back on track, then .

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hmmm - may be.

[Jim McDougall]

I agree with Jens, this discussion has gone 'nomadic' wandering off into the realm of the khanda and pata, which can be traced to the comment by Ariel (#214) noting the use of 'fragments of European rapiers' mounted in South Indian katars.

This comment developed 'legs' with my note (#223)in response suggesting that these katars noted were mounted indeed with fragments of European blades, but NOT of rapiers but full size arming blades. What took the wind was that I suggested that instances of use of the mounting of the thin rapier blades (fencing type) were likely for prestigious court weapons such as some khanda. I admit that I cannot now recall a khanda (firangi) with such a rapier blade.

Fernando (#225) then notes not to forget the pata with' European' blades (quoting my comment on rapier blades).

The discussion then devolves into the non sequiter debate on the skills and dexterity of Indian swordsmen with the pata, loosing track of the 'rapier' blade matter which brought these weapons into the mix.

I would simply say here, my mention of European 'rapier' blades was toward the VERY thin and narrow blades of 'rapiers' , those of swept hilt and cup hilt form, which were intended for civilian wear, and use in fencing (duels) etc.
These were NOT used as a rule in combat situations for obvious reasons, presumably these were so thin and narrow they would snap in the type of action required. I anxiously await being shown that description invalid.

Getting to the often contentious name game, the term rapier was often indiscriminately applied to swords in these times which had similar type hilts but the blades were much wider and more substantial (arming blades).

My remark on khanda or pata hilts with rapier blades as 'prestigious' character weapons may have been too broadly placed...…...and the references I have found note (usually pata) mounted with such 'rapier' blades (the exact character in heft unknown) were often used in demonstrations of skill of use, but not in field combat. It was noted that it was surprising that these were not more widely adopted (Pant).

I hope that will effectively close the rapier/pata /khanda chapter in this discussion on the JAMADHAR/KITARI, and that Bob and readers will accept my apologies for perpetuating the irrelevant 'rapier' issue.

[ariel]

Jim,
You have perfectly described the course of any freewheeling discussion: they tend to veer off in unexpected directions and then happily return back on track. This is one of the charming features of this Forum, although sometimes it may get rather annoying.

Steady as she goes, boys!