Jamdhar katari - a theory

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

... What is interesting, IMHO, that blades of South Indian katars were flat to the point that many used a fragment of European rapiers. But the North Indian ones had inherently reinforced points in a manner of Zirah Bouks. Does it suggest that North Indians constructed them with a view to more heavily armored opponents?

I will humbly look forward to hear those knowledgeable (as you are) opining that, the different type of blades (reinforced or flat tipped) is more a circumstantial choice (read resource) than a selective one, thus armour piercing not being the obliging factor. As an example would be the Mahratas, being more in contact with Europeans, whether capturing their blades in combat or acquiring them in trade.
I have read someone (gratuitously) saying that, the reinforced tip does not necessarily have more efficacy in piercing armor than narrow and slender blades, their primary function being that of preventing them from bending or breaking, such is the force applied to their thrust.

[Jim McDougall]

In rereading some of this thread, I came across some notes I had made last February (#156), concerning the use of these daggers by the Kafirs, and that the distinction of the term jamadhar katari apparently derived through Egerton (1880) in some confusion on weapon descriptions.

As I noted, the dagger form we are apparently referring to as used by the Kafirs is termed a katarah (or katara) by the Kafirs, as I found in the 1999 book "Kafirs of Hindu Kush: A Study of the Waigal and Ashkun Kafirs" by Max Klimburg.

Many salient facts and notes are often lost in the volume of these long standing threads so sometimes helpful to bring forward certain notes for the benefit of current readers.

These katara daggers, at least the ones I have seen are not 'armor piercing' blades, but more leaf shaped straight, or with slightly curved khanjhar like blades.

I think we are confusing these apparently mistermed jamadhar-katari with the katar (jamdhar) of northern regions (Rajasthan, Lahore etc.) which indeed had malle perce (reinforced) tip blades. The katars of the Deccan and southern regions did indeed use fragments of European blades for katars, but these were not typically 'rapier' blades but those of the heavier European arming swords. The use of actual narrow rapier blades was it seems usually confined to full size khanda type swords intended more as prestigious court type weapons in my view.

[Jim McDougall]

As I have noted previously, this is a pretty monumental thread, begun with Stan S. who was posting thoughts on the JAMADHAR KATARI in April of 2012.This drifted into a 4 year chat on the katar, and lost sight of the original query on these jamadhar katari daggers.

In my previous post I noted that the jamadhar katari term seems to have come from Egerton (1880, #344,345) where he uses this to describe these H shape hilt daggers. They are curiously noted as from Nepal.

As has been noted many times over as many years here, the term katar was apparently somehow used by Egerton to describe the transverse grip 'punch' daggers which according to Pant (1980) are properly termed 'jamadhar'.

The original post by Stan some 5 years ago observes that along with the confusion in terms to these two dagger forms, he suggests that perhaps the grip or hand hold has a similarity, though in different disposition as far as position.

Some years ago while researching with a German colleague on the Kafirs and their unique weapons and culture, I was shown numbers of these daggers, which in actuality are termed 'katarah'. These are as I describe in the previous post yesterday, used in areas of Afghanistan to the east by Kafirs (also Kalash) and their tribal groups in Chital to Nuristan.
Apparantly these were held in a fisted grasp, indeed much like the 'katar' and the bar like pommel and crossguard form similar support afforded to the hand of the wielder by the side bars.
(see attached of Kafir man holding one).
Also attached are the entries in Egerton (1880) with the daggers illustrated accordingly.

Also: Regarding the curious attribution to Nepal. My German friend would often travel to Nepal to acquire weapons, and gathering quite a number of these there. Apparently there was a notable diaspora of Kafirs out of the Nuristan regions when subjugated by Abdur Rahman in the late 1890s, however there must have been a flow of them to Nepal prior to this as Egerton did his research many years prior to this. The reason for the movement was of course the Kafir folk religion and avoidance of conversion to Islam. They were animists as well as closer to Hinduism, which along with Buddhism was prevalent in Nepal.
Attaching also examples of katarah (jamdhar katari) .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The use of actual narrow rapier blades was it seems usually confined to full size khanda type swords intended more as prestigious court type weapons in my view.

Ah ... Jim, don't forget the pata, often mounted with European blades. My late example had a long slim one (960X25 m/m).

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Ah ... Jim, don't forget the pata, often mounted with European blades. My late example had a long slim one (960X25 m/m).

Yes indeed, I had overlooked noting that pata also sometimes received rapier blades.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Yes indeed, I had overlooked noting that pata also sometimes received rapier blades.

Many times, definitely ... thin and flexible .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Many times, definitely ... thin and flexible .

Exactly, which is why they would not have served well for a katar. Whether on khanda or pata, these blades were strictly prestige oriented as there were no provisions for European fencing techniques in indian swordsmanship.

[Bob A]

Having made an effort to look into Kafiristani costumery, I admit my thought that the thinner blade of the Jamdhar katari is not influenced by scanty dress. Those folks live in an area demanding reasonable-to-serious clothing.

My example was deemed to be early 17th century by Artzi, and is in fact rather different from the later examples, with regard to the hilt geometry. Assuming the kafiristan location attributed to these weapons, I have to assume that their blades are standard and of long standing. I'm still unsure of their intended function, given the nature of the weapon. I assume it would be just the thing for close-in assassination; aside from that I'd be hard pressed to think what to do with it.

All that said, it remains a very attractive dagger.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

..., Whether on khanda or pata, these blades were strictly prestige oriented as there were no provisions for European fencing techniques in indian swordsmanship.

May i fully disagree, Jim. On the contrary, patas were mainly used in the field, despite requiring exclusively oriented training on their own, the reason why these formidable Mahrata swords were not adopted by other nations. Prestige orientation was not the issue.
The deliberate flexibility of the blade, with a length varying from 120 to a 150 centimeters, was an added advantage, because if it hit across a hard or resistant object, it merely bent over and thus prevented the rider from being unhorsed. You are surely aware of Egerton quoting Capt. Mundys journal, recounting a demonstration of the pata: The gauntlet sword whose blade fully 5 feet long in the hands of a practiced swordsman appears a terrible weapon, though to those unaccustomed to its use, it is but an awkward instrument ... the performer describing a variety of revolutions, not unlike an exaggerated waltz.
These assumptions are not distant from those of Rainer Daehnhardt, who also emphasizes the need for special training of these ideal (SIC) swords.