Massive Spanish Naval Flintlock Blunderbuss Swivel Gun for comment

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting notes on artillery, and it makes perfect sense that the wear on cannon barrels internally would be effected over time by discharge of materials, not to mention fouling from detonated black powder. It does not seem, of course. that stones as ammunition would apply to the deterioration of shipboard cannon, but the analogy is well placed.

Here I would note however that the 'spread' (uh....scope? )of the discussion seems to have expanded a bit. I think I may be the culprit here as I included the use of 'langrage' (=sundry materials along with varied ball) as shot in cannon...……...however this was intended toward a maritime setting. What I had noted was that the heavier cannon barrels were not as susceptible to internal barrel damage by use of such diverse ammunition as would be the case with the RAIL GUNS that are the topic of the OP if such was used in them.

Bringing in the 'choke' a bit more when I entered the discussion, despite having limited exposure to guns and artillery, I wanted to respond to Cap'n Marks note on these kinds of rail guns used aboard privateers and pirate vessels. Again, this was addressed to maritime matters as far as these guns, which led to the blunderbuss spectrum (due to flared barrels). ….and the use of 'langrage' in cannon.

While such miscellaneous material was used as shot on these pirate and privateer vessels, it does not seem (as perfectly explained by Cutlass Collector) that such use in these rail guns (or blunderbusses) would have been a good thing to do.

The discussion also addressed the purpose of the flared barrels on these blunderbuss/rail guns as being primarily for loading in adverse circumstances such as would be present in the pitching of a ships deck etc. Addressing the shot dispersion theory, again perfectly explained by Cutlass Collector dispelled the notion that a flared barrel was to 'spread' the shot more widely in discharge.

I just wanted to reiterate the elements of the discussion here, and to say again how much I appreciate these outstanding explanations on the varied aspects that have pertained.
Cerjak, thank you again for sharing this rail gun!!! Very nice piece!!!

[Fernando K]

Hello

Just to say that it seems to me that the primitive inscription was P M and that the stick of the R was added later, that is why it is badly inclined, or is an incision that already existed when the punch was stamped with the letters

[Fernando K]

Hello

Assuming that the initials are PM, in the "Dizionario delle armi", edited by Mondadori, register two entries for PM:

P. M. "Acronym of Munich Peter"

P. M. "acronym of Meitinger Paul"

and going to the entrances:

Munich, Peter and Fiedrich German gunsmiths, of Soingen perhaps relatives both, who worked in the beginning / half of the six hundred, also Denmark. They were very dear.

Meitinger Paul. Armorer who worked in Innbrusch, in the second half of the Cinquecientos

Affectionately

[Fernando K]

Hello

Someone who has access to STOCKEL to verify or discard these opinions ....

Affectionately

[Jim McDougall]

I am puzzled with the business on the RM marking, and Fernando K, very astute observation on the letters perhaps being PM with the 'P' later altered to an 'R'.
I don't have Stockel, and thus don't have any entries for Paul Meitinger, an Innsbruck armorer.
However I do have references to PM, Peter Munich as well as Friedrich, both were Solingen swordsmiths working in the 17th century, and seemingly part of a family by this name. However Peter often signed 'Munch'. His mark (mid 17th) was a bishops head flanked by initials PM .

While armorers and of course swordsmiths often did also work as gunmakers. I have never heard of the 'Munich's' being other than swordsmiths.

If Peter indeed marked the lock of a gun, why would it have a crown? and why would the 'P' be fashioned into a 'R'.

Also, I have always thought of the circular fixture on the lock denoting a Spanish lock ('miguelet'?) so why would a Spanish lock be made in Solingen?

I do not mean to discount the theory, but honestly do wonder on these matters.

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello

Someone who has access to STOCKEL to verify or discard these opinions ....

Affectionately

I don't know which version of the Neue Stöckel you have but in my last edition there is neither mentioned a Peter Munich or Munch nor a Paul Meitinger. Both names are not to be found. The only reported gunmakers in Solingen have been:

J.G. Jagenberger
Clemens Kalthoff
Johann Kalthoff
Mathias Kalthoff
F.W. Ortmann
Peiper & Co
Heinrich Peter
Heinrich Riffelmann

By the way: After having enlarged the crowned mark on the lockplate as big as possibble I am always still convinced that this is a "RM" and not a "PM"

corrado26

[CutlassCollector]

I've had a look through those two books for any useful information and cannot find an RM or PM.
There is however a crown over R stamped on the butt of a Spanish (or Neapolitan) swivel gun . There is no other information - apart from an indication placing it mid 18th century - and the photograph is small and grainy. Unfortunately the stamp is not visible.

No use for this thread - but I came across the observation that the pineapple motif often found on the front finials of trigger guards was introduced to honour Capt Cook and rapidly replaced the acorn after his death in 1779. A handy date line for English guns.

[Cerjak]

Dear All

Thank you very much for your comments, in these additional pics it is not clear if it is P or R but in the reverse side of the lock we can clearly see that we a have a R and M.
Best

Cerjak