Very Nice Nimcha

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ArmsAndAntiques

I had never seen the Italian connection with the early Nimcha hilts being attributed to an older Italian form, however the example Midelburgo posts shows what is clearly a derivative form of the crabclaw style Italian hilt in it's crossguard. The hilt itself is a variant on the 17th C. or earlier form with the sharp pommel and the flattened sides.

However the crossguard is the first time I've seen this form, and to me proves, or goes some way in doing so, that the cross-pollination between the European forms also extended to other types of hilt shapes and forms,especially at what would have been an early date. However, that isn't surprising considering the many European captured slaves that were forced into service among the Corsairs and Ottoman empire, I can imagine some of them that were forced into combat, or went willingly, would have their favorite forms interpreted through local types.

Excellent find and an important addition to the nimcha formology pantheon.

Well noted, and goes again to the landmark article "A Late 15th Century Italian Sword" (1975) by the late Tony North. ….which clearly shows the type of hilts which indeed seems to have set the pace for these Arab hilts.
As also well noted, not only the Algerian corsairs et al, and essentially the Ottomans carried on a monumental commerce in slaving, and yes many did willingly go into their service. There were many cases, and notably some Dutch, along with others who even nominally converted to Islam and became corsairs themselves.
The complexity and scope of all these factors make it hard to determine just when and how these forms cross diffused, but in my view the early Italian forms profoundly influenced many ethnographic forms of edged weapons.

[TVV]

Are we absolutely certain that the crossguard on midelburgo's sword is Italian and not say, Iberian?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The date on this weapons scabbard says 1110 AH which is about 1689AD

AHMAD BIN ABDULLAH is on one line of text...the one nearest the hilt.

The other line I'm not sure about.

[Jim McDougall]

Not at all Fernando, this is a most interesting look into these etymologies, and while it has been 'lifetimes' since I fenced, I admit little of this terminology was ever present in my mind Still,as we examine blades looking for historical clues, it is important to use correct terms in notations, so my 'faux pas' was unfortunate despite deeper analysis not needed as the correction put things on track.

In retrospect I would retract the word jibberish that I used as well, and used illegible or indecipherable, to explain the notions of some Arabic inscriptions being so. It is a most complex topic, and it seems such intricacies completely get things off center.

Midelburgo, thank you for the note on the stortas, and I have always very much agreed with the late Tony North, that these were certainly instrumental in some degree in the development of these Meditteranean swords. The fact that so many Italian influences are apparent in many ethnographic weapon forms compelled me to get a copy of the huge (and expnsive) Boccia & Coelho "Armi Bianche Italiene", where the evidences can be seen.

Ibrahiim, thank you for that translation!! Very sound evidence that is really helpful as we continue the investigation here. It is really good to get a well based look into these swords which will advance our core knowledge at last. There has been too much incomplete over the years.


.[/QUOTE]

[ariel]

In defence of the " gibberish": some Central European swords have inscriptions in " pseudo-arabic" style. Obviously, they are " legible" but certainly "undecipherable".

[fernando]

Sorry my ignorance Dr. but, if they are legible (lego), they are readable, hence interpretable.
But if they are 'pseudo, it is when they are undecipherable, hence uninterpretable... right ? .

[ariel]

By legible I meant one can trace their configurations. But they are “pseudo”, I.e. without meaning.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

By legible I meant one can trace their configurations. But they are “pseudo”, I.e. without meaning.

Thanks Ariel, 'psuedo' is much better term than 'jibberish', my bad
What I was thinking of is the fascination with 'oriental' exotica (which included Eastern, i.e Arabic, Middle Eastern) decoration on weaponry from 17th through 18th in Europe. Naturally the European artisans had little command of the complexities of Islamic calligraphy, so artistically applied simulations of some of the lettering etc. with these kinds of designs on weaponry.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here is a Nimcha not usually attributed to Somalia but it gives notice that these swords were all over the Zanzibar regional Hub and because that part of Somalia was a key regional trade player it is not surprising that such a weapon should appear. Naturally with pictures it is advisable to be cautious since what defines a nationally used sword or is it a photographers prop?

The hilt is clearly saying Nimcha ...and looks similar to Yemeni and Saudia variants although it rings a certain bell in the pommel top since the clear link to Bilao weapons of Somalia is there...in the three prong format...and it suggests an influence upon other Nimcha particularly Saudia style … perhaps giving the direction of influence...
At least we have here a potential spread through trade of this Greater Indian Ocean style or as Buttin probably coined them Arabian.
The picture describes the Somalian gentleman as being of VIP status..

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Majeerteen Sultanate From where the above picture was taken...located in the horn of Africa...below..The town marked in red is Alula on the coast.

I HAD NO IDEA THAT THERE WAS A COUNTRY CALLED THIS ..

Trading vessels had to virtually skirt around it as it was The Horn of Africa ..From Wikepedia I quote;

The Majeerteen Sultanate (Somali: Suldanadda Majeerteen, Arabic: سلطنة مجرتين‎), also known as Majeerteenia and Migiurtinia, was a Somali kingdom centered in the Horn of Africa. Ruled by Boqor Osman Mahamuud during its golden age, the sultanate controlled much of northern and central Somalia in the 19th and early 20th centuries. The polity had all of the organs of an integrated modern state and maintained a robust trading network. It also entered into treaties with foreign powers and exerted strong centralized authority on the domestic front. Much of the Sultanate's former domain is today coextensive with the autonomous Puntland region in northeastern Somalia.

Regarding the weapons here is the Saudia silvered hilt Nimcha and the Billao Somali hilt which was a swordhilt or also on a dagger... plus the Yemeni looking version with prongs and probably a result of trade to or from this very important region...particularly in the 19th C and early 20thC. as per the heavy print above.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent examples of the South Arabian (Yemen/Hadhramaut) styling and of course the variation of the hilt, yet with the distinguishing 'hand nock' on the inside of the grip which seems to ideally denote 'nimcha'.

While obviously we are deviating from Charles' sword in the original post in degree, it is interesting to examine the spectrum of styling in these Mediterranean swords which are typically associated with Algeria.

The development of the form from 15th century Italian hilt styles, and blades evolving as well from Italian stortas and European falchions also provides dimension in understanding the dynamics and context in which Charles outstanding example originated and clearly held importance.

I think this Somali connected topic as well as others which have come up in examining Charles' nimcha are well worthy of their own threads to be discussed further. I never had heard of this Somalian kingdom either! but its fascinating to see the world this nimcha lived in !!!

[qusko]

Hi,

What do you think about the attached saber?
Seems that it may come from Algeria, or Yemen... for me it looks like more from Yemen (hilt type) based on other posts:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15790
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21833

Blade is polished and was engraved (not much has survived).
Blade quality seems to be good. Maybe older than hilt and scabbard..

Would appreciate more information about the origin/age

[TVV]

Thank you for sharing qusko. Yes, I agree with you that this is an older European blade that was originally mounted on an Algerian nimcha that was later remounted in Yemen.

[Jim McDougall]

This blade does seem like those seen in 'Mediterranean' swords which seem like the flared tip curved types (as mentioned in Elgood, as well as "Arts of the Muslim Knight", which I do not have on hand).

I am not sure this blade would be European with the spines in the blade back (at least in those I am familiar with), and while European hatchet point blades (incl British M1796) have radiused points, the flare and curve are not this dramatic. Whatever the case, this example has a resemblance to the example attached.
Question: the turquoise and coral decoration does seem popular in Algeria, did Yemeni armorers use this affectation as well? The mounts do seem Yemeni.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by qusko

Hi,

What do you think about the attached saber?
Seems that it may come from Algeria, or Yemen... for me it looks like more from Yemen (hilt type) based on other posts:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15790
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21833

Blade is polished and was engraved (not much has survived).
Blade quality seems to be good. Maybe older than hilt and scabbard..

Would appreciate more information about the origin/age

Mounts are definitely Yemeni work. Those blades, including on nimchas, seem to have been present in Yemen in large numbers and can come on a variety of swords including 'karabelas' and other types.

[qusko]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Those blades, including on nimchas, seem to have been present in Yemen in large numbers and can come on a variety of swords including 'karabelas' and other types.

Seems blade can be from XVII.
Do you have any suggestions about hilt/scabbard age? - XIX, earlier?