Significance of Beaded Edges/Borders on South Indian Weapons?

Mercenary · 4th March 2019, 04:13 PM

Nihl, this is an ancient non-vedic tradition most likely Tamil in origin when cows, warhorses, elefants and people were decorated with flower or bell garlands. These were not only ornaments for the fests, weddings and so. The tradition was rooted in religious and mystical views and closely related to military traditions and weapons accordingly.

Million thanks for such theme.

Jens Nordlunde · 4th March 2019, 04:36 PM

Marcenary, this is a very week explanation, and it does not help much.
There are a lot of katars and other weapons from South India without these beads. Had it really been such a deep religious thing with them, I am sure we would have seen this kind of decoration far more often.

Mross, you may have a point, but I think there is more to it than that. It could be a fashion, which later moved more to the north. It seems as if Bundi, Kotah and Sind used it as well in later centuries, but as far as I know it did not move more north than to the states just north of Deccan.

Mercenary · 4th March 2019, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Marcenary, this is a very week explanation, and it does not help much.
There are a lot of katars and other weapons from South India without these beads. Had it really been such a deep religious thing with them, I am sure we would have seen this kind of decoration far more often.

Of course. As well as not all cows in India are decorated with flower garlands.

Jim McDougall · 4th March 2019, 05:56 PM

I think the use of beaded decoration both aesthetically and traditionally is indeed related to much deeper religious orientation. While such decoration used occasionally on sword hilts as seen on some hussar sabre hilts (Esterhazy unit of cavalry 1740s and other versions) in Europe, these appear to have been indirectly related to the Rosary bead theme. The use of engraved dots on blades termed "Paternoster' were also related to religious imbuement.

In this case, these beaded edges seem likely to recall the prayer beads used in Muslim Faith termed I believe Misbaha or Tasbih, and while origins are unclear in this use, the concept itself of use of beads may have had Buddhist origin.
In Islam, I believe the beads in varied combination numerically may represent the 99 Names of Allah. In some cases there may be 33 for example, and counted three times each etc.

Clearly the use of beads in decoration often may be used numerically to represent key or auspiciously significant numbers, and are often seen by those uninitiated in that particular context may regard them as aesthetically applied.

In these cases, often beads themselves gained a keenly auspicious value and were indeed used is important occasions and ceremonies is that sense in the manner suggested, which would indeed include weddings etc.

There have been many books and references attending to the use of beads in the symbolism created and used in civilization into prehistory. This is as brief as we might explain the plausible use here.

ariel · 4th March 2019, 11:30 PM

Elgood’s entire first Indian book was about the connection between weapons and rituals. With multiple religious consultants working with him there is no way a feature that wide-spread would have escaped his investigative clutches.

I am with Jens and mross: just a pretty embellishment. In a way, this is a parallel development of European and Caucasian real and false filigrees.

India is a country filled with mysteries and hidden meanings. Because of that, we may be lured into futile searches for mysteries where there are none.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Bob A · 5th March 2019, 02:57 AM

It's often seemed to me that Indian decorative sensibilities tend toward what some in the West might consider over-embellishment. "Nothing exceeds like excess" might be the motto.

An Afghan rug merchant of my acquaintance tended to refer to this trend as "Kutchi". I don't know if his reference holds any more than simple anecdotal comment, however.

I find it part and parcel of the aesthetics of the region. While it is not universal - not everyone can afford the price of embellishment - it is certainly not uncommon.

ariel · 5th March 2019, 04:51 AM

Good point!
Al Sabah collection of Indian arms is the ultimabte example of “bling”. Somehow, the word Kutchi reminds me of Kitschy:-)
Elgood writes about sacral motives of overdecorating weapons with immoderate amounts of gold and gems. My guess that behind that pious facade was a garish dollop of showmanship and bragging.

Compared to it, beaded edges of steel handles are an example of modesty.

Persian Shah Ismail sent Sultan Selim a lavishly decorated sword right before the Battle of Chaldiran. One potential motive was to show his superiority (weapons were normally gifted by a sovereign to his servant). Another explanation was a supercilious snark that Turks fight like overjewelled women. Selim disabused Ismail of that notion the very next day:-)

Mercenary · 5th March 2019, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Elgood’s entire first Indian book was about the connection between weapons and rituals. With multiple religious consultants working with him there is no way a feature that wide-spread would have escaped his investigative clutches.

I read the Bible. There is nothing about dinosaurs, Antarctica or the Earth’s magnetic field. Although there were consultants ... do not compare with anyone.
Why? Because the Bible was written about something else. Also the book you talked about it is written about something else: about weapons in the ritual (and then only one chapter). Above I'm talking about the ritual in weapons . This is another animal (like the difference between a palm squirrel and a fox).

Quote:

I am with Jens and mross: just a pretty embellishment.

Just an embellishment. Just India. Just another culture. Just three thousand years. Nothing complicated.

Quote:

India is a country filled with mysteries and hidden meanings.

A typical point of view of the 17-19th century. Where all western knowledge about the weapons of India and its culture got stuck.

Quote:

Because of that, we may be lured into futile searches for mysteries where there are none

All cats are grey in the dark

ariel · 5th March 2019, 11:48 AM

Well, if you are so convinced in the veracity of your hypothesis, continue your quest. You will have to find documentary evidence supporting it. I am sure there are many Sanskrit texts not yet meticulously read for a mention of this minor decorative detail even by professional Indian philologists. When you find it please let us know. I for one will be very interested. Good luck!

And BTW, there are tons of discussion points about ritual in weapons in Elgood’s book.

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4th March 2019, 04:13 PM	#1
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	Nihl, this is an ancient non-vedic tradition most likely Tamil in origin when cows, warhorses, elefants and people were decorated with flower or bell garlands. These were not only ornaments for the fests, weddings and so. The tradition was rooted in religious and mystical views and closely related to military traditions and weapons accordingly. Million thanks for such theme.

4th March 2019, 04:36 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Marcenary, this is a very week explanation, and it does not help much. There are a lot of katars and other weapons from South India without these beads. Had it really been such a deep religious thing with them, I am sure we would have seen this kind of decoration far more often. Mross, you may have a point, but I think there is more to it than that. It could be a fashion, which later moved more to the north. It seems as if Bundi, Kotah and Sind used it as well in later centuries, but as far as I know it did not move more north than to the states just north of Deccan.

4th March 2019, 05:56 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I think the use of beaded decoration both aesthetically and traditionally is indeed related to much deeper religious orientation. While such decoration used occasionally on sword hilts as seen on some hussar sabre hilts (Esterhazy unit of cavalry 1740s and other versions) in Europe, these appear to have been indirectly related to the Rosary bead theme. The use of engraved dots on blades termed "Paternoster' were also related to religious imbuement. In this case, these beaded edges seem likely to recall the prayer beads used in Muslim Faith termed I believe Misbaha or Tasbih, and while origins are unclear in this use, the concept itself of use of beads may have had Buddhist origin. In Islam, I believe the beads in varied combination numerically may represent the 99 Names of Allah. In some cases there may be 33 for example, and counted three times each etc. Clearly the use of beads in decoration often may be used numerically to represent key or auspiciously significant numbers, and are often seen by those uninitiated in that particular context may regard them as aesthetically applied. In these cases, often beads themselves gained a keenly auspicious value and were indeed used is important occasions and ceremonies is that sense in the manner suggested, which would indeed include weddings etc. There have been many books and references attending to the use of beads in the symbolism created and used in civilization into prehistory. This is as brief as we might explain the plausible use here.

4th March 2019, 11:30 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Elgood’s entire first Indian book was about the connection between weapons and rituals. With multiple religious consultants working with him there is no way a feature that wide-spread would have escaped his investigative clutches. I am with Jens and mross: just a pretty embellishment. In a way, this is a parallel development of European and Caucasian real and false filigrees. India is a country filled with mysteries and hidden meanings. Because of that, we may be lured into futile searches for mysteries where there are none. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

5th March 2019, 02:57 AM	#6
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 436	It's often seemed to me that Indian decorative sensibilities tend toward what some in the West might consider over-embellishment. "Nothing exceeds like excess" might be the motto. An Afghan rug merchant of my acquaintance tended to refer to this trend as "Kutchi". I don't know if his reference holds any more than simple anecdotal comment, however. I find it part and parcel of the aesthetics of the region. While it is not universal - not everyone can afford the price of embellishment - it is certainly not uncommon.

5th March 2019, 04:51 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Good point! Al Sabah collection of Indian arms is the ultimabte example of “bling”. Somehow, the word Kutchi reminds me of Kitschy:-) Elgood writes about sacral motives of overdecorating weapons with immoderate amounts of gold and gems. My guess that behind that pious facade was a garish dollop of showmanship and bragging. Compared to it, beaded edges of steel handles are an example of modesty. Persian Shah Ismail sent Sultan Selim a lavishly decorated sword right before the Battle of Chaldiran. One potential motive was to show his superiority (weapons were normally gifted by a sovereign to his servant). Another explanation was a supercilious snark that Turks fight like overjewelled women. Selim disabused Ismail of that notion the very next day:-)

5th March 2019, 11:48 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, if you are so convinced in the veracity of your hypothesis, continue your quest. You will have to find documentary evidence supporting it. I am sure there are many Sanskrit texts not yet meticulously read for a mention of this minor decorative detail even by professional Indian philologists. When you find it please let us know. I for one will be very interested. Good luck! And BTW, there are tons of discussion points about ritual in weapons in Elgood’s book.