Valuable sticks

[Tim Simmons]

I do believe some very high up people from the countries that clamour for repatriation of artifacts, often do rather well when they offer treasures for sale on the black or even open market. I had better get ready to duck .

[Titus Pullo]

Yes, I seem to be sharing your view on the cultural values from different cultures...especially religeon. I think it helps you understand and learb about yourself better by studying the important values behind each items, religeons, and other items. Especially, religeon is very important because true logic and wisdom can only be found in your heart...only in love. Why? Because when you have no respect for anything you tend loose focus on the objectivity...like when you are angry or prejudice, you tend to think what you want to think. For instance, people who have no respect for beer might kill himself drinking death. You a lot of young people partying and drinking excessively,thinking they'll be ok. You need to have respect...having a cool head...and that comes from your heart and love for life, people and the culture.

[ariel]

Titus,
Come over, I'll take you to our local microbrewery and guarantee that after 3 glasses your heart will be filled with the most selfless love for the entire universe!
Then, after an urgent trip to the loo, the love dissipates. Start all over. Yin, yang, yin, yang.... Very Zen-ic....

[yuanzhumin]

Hello

Interesting discussion.

I don’t want to get involved in the debate of colonization, or its goods and wrongs. And believe me, I'm far from being a utopian or an anti-imperialist guy. I think what we are talking about here is above all political considerations.

It's about being fair and having a certain notion of sharing.

Sharing : The fact that all Nigerian swords belong to Lagos, all Michelangelos to Rome, all Russian icons to Moscow and all statues of Buddha to Bangkok strikes me as absurd as it can be. Yes, that's why I think artpieces should be shared with others, mostly when we have so many of them from all around the world that are stored in western museums without being displayed for ages and often will never be, because of space or budget issues. I'm thinking, by the way, that these sticks had more risks to get rotten in the underground where they were kept in England than in the hands of the people that value them. And if they are lost in a war, or in a natural catastrophy, this is their destiny after all. Look at the Bamyan buddhas in Afghanistan. What could we do ? On the other way, I think we did a great job in Cambodgia to help them save and recover their khmer patrimony.

So instead of not doing anything, why shouldn’t we share part of the western collections with the other countries and even returning them sometimes when the items are coming from abroad ? In which conditions it could be done, this is another debate, but the principle is there: it’s possible to share.

Now, there may be also few western art pieces abroad, in the Middle East, in Asia or in other parts of the world. But very often they are found in the private collections of very rich people, and more seldomly found in public museums. In Taiwan, for example, there is one museum, yes, where you can find western paintings and art works, but it has been founded by one of the richest man on this island. The guy could have kept its masterworks for himself but no, he wanted to SHARE its personal collection with the public.

Talking about Turkey, it is a country that had a long history with Europe to such an extent that it is waiting to get inside the European Union. So nothing extraordinary to the presence of European artworks in Turkey or in Russia. But what about all the other countries ? In the Far East, in South America, in Oceania ? Take Africa, is there any Michel Angelo in the African museums ? They don’t even have their own stuff that is already, most of the time or for the best pieces, in western museums. That’s the reason why I think the story of these sticks going back to their people is nice. It’s a very little drop in the bucket, but it’s nice.

Being fair : There is something else important to underline. It is the fact that these sticks were stolen in a violent episode. These were not items that were discarded after being used or collected innocently. These sticks were stolen while they were still full of the power entrusted to them by the people that used them. So they have a symbolic value that gives to them and to their return a very special significance, I think. Wouldn't it be normal to ask for the return of the original documents of the American Constitution if they were stolen or would you think that they are only old papers just good to be thrown away ?

Concerning the National Palace Museum in Taiwan, where there are so many pieces from China, there are very different ways to see the situation:
- * if you are a chinese communist : you think these pieces have not left the country as they are in Taiwan that is, the communists insist, still a part of China.
- * if you are from the Kuomintang (Nationalist Party): you think these pieces have not left the country because they are in Taiwan that is also, for the Kuomintang people, a part of China, only the definition of their China being different.
- * if you are a taiwanese independantist : you think most of these pieces are coming from a foreign country, China, and should go back there if only the Chinese could put away the 800 missiles that they have turned on Taiwan. Another possibility would be to give part of the collections to the Japanese museums in exchange for most of the Taiwanese aboriginal artifacts collected in their museums.
What do you think ?

Greetings,

yuanzhumin

[Tim Simmons]

In my heart I feel there may be a case for the return of some artifacts on diplomatic and moral grounds. After all, some efforts have been made to return stolen art from the worlds most recent conflicts. If I was in charge of the British Museum I would not want to be the one who set the precedent.

[ariel]

Yuanzhumin,
I loved your argument about China/Taiwan!
Yes, a lot of "ownership' is in the eyes of the (be)holder.
And the British museum may, indeed, be in trouble. Elgin's stones from Greece, treasures of the Peking Summer Palace ( BTW, do you know that it was looted and destroyed by Lord Elgin, the son of the Elgin's stones guy? Heredity, heredity....). British Crown contains Koh-i-Noor, a giant diamond taken by the Brits as a part of indemnity after the Sikh War, etc, etc,
No matter what, most valuable antiques will always be concentrated in the hands of rich and famous ( states or individuals). And, yes, it is a pity that museums have so little exhibition space.The only solution is exchange exhibitions.

[yuanzhumin]

Hi everybody,
What brings me to a much bigger stick :
Should we ask the French to give back the obelisk standing on the Concorde Square in the middle of Paris ?
In fact, it looks better than the guillotines the revolutionaries used to set up there. To the great despair of the ones that would like to see me under their blade , I would say no.
I was remembered not long ago that this obelisk was not stolen by Napoleon during his Egyptian campaign, but was offered to France by the sultan of Egypt, Mohammed Ali, in 1830.
So if this one was a gift and legally entered France, that other one was not : the obelisk of Axum that used to stand in Roma till last year and that had been looted from Ethiopia by the Italian army in 1937. See this article http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4458105.stm**
By the way, I just realized that we could celebrate these days the first anniversary of the return of this cultural relic in its country.
Best,
yuanzhumin

[Tim Simmons]

The British Museum has far more important things in my mind than the Elgin marbles, various treasures equivalent to the UK crown jewels from some sea board countries, taken within the last 110 years. I could well see this as a cause for concern in the "modern" world "global village", but as I said if I were the boss I would not sign the paper and I think that will always be the case of the person lucky enough to become the boss.

[katana]

With the continual advance of modern, industrial society encroaching onto the lands and lives of tribal members, (Africa, Borneo, Tibet etc.) their established cultural lives are being seriously eroded. New generations are adapting or are forced to adapt to modern ethics and lifestyle, much of the wisdom and knowledge of their ancestors will surely be lost as the 'old ways' are forgotten. This I feel is a sad state of affairs .
Perhaps you could argue that museums and collectors would become the 'custodians' of their cultural history. And by doing so, would educate others and preserve their heritage. But, generally the driving force behind many museums and dare I say, some collectors is an economic one. Obtaining 'treasures' legally or otherwise, for the purpose of increasing the number of the paying guests (museum), for prestige (museum/collector) or to sell on for profit (collector).
Articles 'stolen' as war trophies is an obvious grey area, after all many countries' borders have changed due to conflict, yet it is rare for the vanquished to expect to regain land lost after a war. Whether this is morally wrong is down to the individual and the circumstances. But as Darwin points out, it is (unfortunately) 'survival of the fittest'.
I also agree that many poorer (economically) countries seem to have corrupt regimes, whom, would surely sell, any returned 'national treasures' for personal gain. Depriving their own people of their heritage and the country's property.
I hope that if decisions are made about the return of artefacts to their rightful heirs, they are based on moral judgement, and are individually assessed on their merits. It is important that these 'treasures', whether they are 'sticks' or a Chinese jade death mask, are preserved, and available for research or viewing.

If man forgets where he came from... how will he know where he’s going.....

Who would have thought that an article about the return of 'some sticks' would stir such debate.......