Jamdhar katari - a theory

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

I dare say we'd be lost in there without nomenclature Ariel.
On the other hand, many features have multiple names depending upon the particular keris culture we are discussing.

The keris has to me always been one of the most daunting fields of study, not only for the variety and scope of the form, but the very subjective and powerful traditions held deeply in their tradition. I have always admired the tenacity and dedication of those who have mastered these complexities.

With what I do know of keris study is that the nomenclature does seem pretty clearly set, and while there are dialectic variations in expressing these terms, they do not seem to carry as much dispute as with transliterations and colloquial misunderstandings with other ethnographic forms. If I am not mistaken, my limited foray into the keris field seemed as if the terms were often cross references or noted with variations to eliminate misunderstandings.

That is what I wish could be better accomplished in the study of these various ethnographic forms, to simply cross reference the various terms rather than place an adamant classification which will inevitably be disputed.
As has been said many times, according to ones perspective, the same weapon will be referred to by various terms, and the use of variant terms affords more universal understanding.

As noted, the nomenclature is very essential in the understanding of the complex nature of the keris and its varying forms culturally, just as we study other ethnographic weapon forms in similar manner.

[Mercenary]

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[Jim McDougall]

Cool.
What is this from, any info? What is the purpose of the image?
Nice to see this thread again, but what are we looking at?

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Cool.
What is this from, any info? What is the purpose of the image?
Nice to see this thread again, but what are we looking at?

Using of katar. Maybe piercing through the mail.

Illustration from Genghis-nama. Mugals, 16c.
"Turkish tribes slay Jenghiz Khan's ancestors in the Land of Argune-Kun"

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Using of katar. Maybe piercing through the mail.

Illustration from Genghis-nama. Mugals, 16c.
"Turkish tribes slay Jenghiz Khan's ancestors in the Land of Argune-Kun"

Thank you Mercenary, excellent illustration!!

[ariel]

I agree!
I still remember Mercenary’s posting of pictures of a battle between Persian and Afghani armies showing guardless sabers ( shashkas?) from the era of Nadir Shah.
The only one comparable in its impact was a pic of Baluchistan warriors carrying sabers with camel head-like pommel and a ring. That one was found by Eric ( estcrh).


I know, I know , some pseudoacademic characters may persist in doubting the impact of those iconographic pieces of evidence against the popularly accepted dating of shashkas or the attribution of Hyderabadi swords.

But IMHO they can just go and beat their heads against the Great Wall of China.

My hat is off to these two guys!

[Bob A]

First, I'd like to remark Mercenary's illustration depicting not only the use of katar as armor-piercing weapon, but also to note the soldier being attacked seems to be wielding a jamdhar katari. Two for one!

I have posted below a few poor cellphone pictures.

One illustrates the near-identical distance between the bars of a katar, and those of a jamghar katari. Each is about 8.5cm. However much they may be dissimilar in other ways, the grip size is equivalent. While probably useless as information, a comparison seemed worthwhile.

Other photos illustrate the way that the nature of the grip forces hand position; the weapons are dissimilar in use and function, but they sit in hand identically. Th only difference is the way the blade projects from the hand.

Finally, the thickness, or lack thereof, of the blades is worthy of remark. The jamdhar katari's blade is remarkable for its thinness. This is not a weapon for slaying tigers. I can see it slipping nicely between someone's ribs, though.

Similar names, similar hilts - with a twist - but totally different uses.

Finally, the hilt design of the jamdhar katari is notably similar to that of the chillanum, to my eye at any rate. Of course there are obvious differences, but the underlying concept seems to derive from an archetype common to both. (No chillanum pics, though.) Apologies for the implied derailment here.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Mercenary, excellent illustration!!

Voilá ... a scene in that katars are not being used in tiger hunting