Ancient Zealot daggers

[ariel]

Does this help?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2036

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much for the responses guys! Interesting perspective DrDavid with the term cica (=incision) and the term sica. I always very much admire linguistics and how much pertinant information can be derived from word and term associations, semantics and transliteration.

Rivkin, actually my interest in this topic began with the recent media articles and National Geographic documentary on the ancient document holding the text of the Gospel of Judas, which has recently surfaced after being virtually lost for nearly 1700 years. My reference to the Sicarii comes from an article from the Dallas Morning News (by Susan Hogan-Albach, section G, April 12,2003). In it the author discusses possibilities for the name/word (?) commonly associated with Judas, Iscariot. She asks if it is a surname, name of a town, or "...a corruption of the Latin word 'sicarius' referring to a dagger carried by terrorists known as the Sicarii".
While there are numerous interpretations of the political dealings and motivations of this group, it is stated, as noted, that they were known for assassinations, with these daggers presumably. Possibly the daggers were simply symbolic for the militant function of the group?
In any case, the illustration of the gladiator with a 'sica' gives a reasonable idea of the form, but as you suggest, possibly derivative of the larger swords.
It seems like clandestine activity such as assassinations would call for a more concealable weapon though.

Ariel, thank you for that thread, which is indeed helpful, I must have missed that one! It really is interesting to see the types of weapons used during these Biblical times, a period it seems not often dealt with in weaponry.

Thank you again guys!
All the best,
Jim

[VANDOO]

LOOSE ROBES AND TOGAS WOULD LEND THEMSELVES TO CARYING CONCEALED WEAPONS SO THE KNIVES COULD HAVE BEEN FAIRLY LARGE AND CARRIED IN SOME TYPE OF CONCELED HARNESS. BUT AN ASSASINS BLADE DOSEN'T NEED TO BE VERY LARGE AS SURPRIZE IS THE USUAL TECKNIQUE , AND BATTLE IS TO BE AVOIDED. IT KIND OF MAKES ONE WONDER WHAT SORT OF WEAPONS PAUL (SAUL) USED BEFORE HE BECAME A CHRISTIAN.

[fernando]

Hi Jim
May i save you some search time.
http://home.ix.netcom.com/~kiyoweap/...p/akinakes.htm
There seems to be no native name for the Zealots sica, as instead they picked the then current term, or maybe even the model, from the the Romans, to call themselves, or by the rest of their people, as Sicarii, which would be Aramaic ... actually a term still in use in portuguese; Sicários ... this with a conotation later applied by Romans, to make it become a perjorative term. It aparently was them who nick named Judas as Iscariotes ( Sicarius ) to distinguished from other timely known Judas.
Kind regards
fernando

[ariel]

Traditionally (and, probably, correctly) Iscariot was interpreted as corrupted rendition of Kirya (pl. Krayot): something like "settlement(s)" in Hebrew. In Israel there are quite a lot of Krayot: Kiryat Menahem, Kiryat Motzkin etc, etc. So, Judas was "...of the settlements". He likely lived in the vicinity of Jerusalem, in one of the outlying suburbs.

[Jens Nordlunde]

If you were an assassin, and your speciality was to sneak up on people from behind and cut their throats, I think a knife like the one shown by Ariel in post 1 might be handy, but for normal use rather unpractical.

[Rick]

It reminds me a bit of the shotel , also the korambit .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2036

The korambit was (IIRC) deployed with a sudden upward sweep thereby disemboweling the person attacked . One can also see this method as the primary purpose of the rencong .

Stomach wounds were invariably fatal .

[fernando]

Yes Ariel, Rielish qeriyoth.
But i had read that this was considered to be inconclusive, by modern Theologists and Bible exegetists, as not seeing much sense in a guy being named as from the place, and not as from such a place. The alternatives are that he was from an actual place in Samaria called Sycharis, hence ’sychar” [isch’sycar], the man of Sychar, allowing toponímy ‘ischarioth”.
On the other hand, some other experts do not exclude that he was named after Sicarii/Sicarius, in a non friendly association with the dagger circuit.
I came to see this version as a more plausible one, but not excluding that both versions could have existed, like Romans and non followers making a melange of both terms and atributions.
Sorry, this doesn't help to find details about the Sica.
Regards

[Battara]

Originally Posted by ariel

Does this help?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2036

Boy did I miss this thread. I did see the piece in the magazine - and with the shape and materials used, I would posit that this is a ceremonial agricultural tool, possible for use in the first cutting of the harvest (a custom of the day). This would not be used by the Sicarii who did assinassinations of Romans and Roman collaborators.

[Jim McDougall]

Just reading more of the great responses, and much appreciate hearing from everybody on this. This field of study has always seemed to escape my attention, possibly because of all the controversy, as noted by Rivkin. I'm glad to finally delve into it, and am especially impressed by the extremely esoteric knowledge constantly shared by all of you in your posts.

I think it is extremely interesting to see etymology, semantics and colloquial terms play a key role in historical investigation here and how socially applied terms evolved into perjoratives ( recalls similar instance in India where the practice of 'thuggee' evolved into the perjorative 'thug' for hoodlums etc.)
I honestly had not thought of the Roman term 'sica' and its apparant root for sickle either (really rusty in Latin

I had read of the possible derivation of Judas' name (?) Iscariot to one of the locations as Ariel mentioned, but it seems that the most compelling association holds to the more socially applied connotation to 'sicarri', and the Zealot groups as noted by Fernando and Fearn.
I agree that stealth attacks would require very concealable daggers and that the term 'sicarri' may well apply generally to daggers of varying sizes, up to those used in combat.

Thank you again guys for adding all the data on this, excellent discussion as well! !!!

All the best,
Jim

Fernando, thanks very much for the excellent thread link to the akinakes, has some great info....good to hear from you!!!

[ariel]

Regarding Roman gladiatorial weapons: one of the most famous talmudic personalities, Rabbi Resh Lakish, used (before his turn to religious life) to be a rather famous "robber". Since other famous Rabbis never despised him and one even gave him his sister for a wife, the assumption is that he was an anti-Roman guerilla rather than a highway bandit. Nevertheless, even after becoming a Rabbi, the old ways beckoned hard, and he, from time to time, hired himself out as a gladiator. Strange and complex people one can find there...
This being the case, it is likely that anti-Roman Sicarii used traditional Roman weapons. At that time, Judea was under foreign control for at least 300-400 years (Greek-Syrian and then Roman), and the weapons in use were cosmopolitan.

[Jim McDougall]

Ariel,
Outstanding, well thought out and beautifully worded ! I completely agree, and the material on the 'robber' activities and the Rabbi is extremely interesting information as well. Concise, comprehensive and pretty much conclusive post that addresses my original question categorically. Now to find more on those contemporary Roman weapons in use.
Nicely done , thank you
All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

please ignore this one

[fernando]

After all, the Sica was quite a famous weapon . Brought around by Thracians and Dacians, adopted by Romans and Zealots, everybody had a go at it. Forcingly there were several variations, but with the basic shape of a reaping device, so it seems. Here can be seen a Tracian Sica Supina, made in wood, for trainning purposes, found within the barracks of a Roman legion, in Oberaden. http://www.arsdimicandi.net/ad_1_0000b0.htm. Rudis is the name given by Romans for sword wood replicas, which can be either trainning pieces for the army exercises and gladiator rookies, as well as presentation swords to victorious gladiators, signifying they could retire from such tough business.
Dacian Sicas can be seen in Trajan's Column.http://cheiron.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/b...anpage.cgi?349
However i am personally convinced that the non combat Sica version, that one of Sicarius, be them Roman Sicarius, Zealot Sicarius, or the unamed Scum of the period, would be a shorter handy piece. Whether these concealed daggers were double or single edged, or simply free style, is something to be found out, as the chronicles do not coincide on this point.

[Jim McDougall]

More great info and threads Fernando, thank you!! I think you are right, a smaller handy form would be more in line with the stealth needed in carrying out the activities of sicarri. As Jens mentioned earlier, such a smaller and curved form would be ideal for such purpose, but not likely in more conventional combat or defense.
It seems like references to sica/sickle and such blades with inside cutting edge may well have been for throat slashing, as Jens suggests, but also very effective at the upward sweep in abdominal attack, as noted by Rick.
One thought that comes with Fernando's note on the Dacian form of sica, it seems that I had read somewhere that the Dacians had sickle type edged weapons, and one drawing I had seen captioned it a Dacian 'razor' knife.
Best regards,
Jim