"Elephant" Keris

[Jean]

Hello Bill,
The winged elephant motif on the sorsoran is normally part of the dapur Lar Monga with 3 waves, or Liman Lar with 11 waves, not 13 as your blade.
I can understand why you like this blade because the design and workmanship are quite spectacular, what puzzles me is that the style of the elephant head is different on each side?
As said by David, I think that it is probably a recent creation, normally the blade is not carved through like yours, see a more traditional blade with dapur Lar Monga/ Urubing Dilah.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

The winged elephant motif on the sorsoran is normally part of the dapur Lar Monga with 3 waves, or Liman Lar with 11 waves, not 13 as your blade.
I can understand why you like this blade because the design and workmanship are quite spectacular, what puzzles me is that the style of the elephant head is different on each side?

Jean, i believe that Bill is actually showing us two completely different keris in his post. The style is not different on each side. These are not the same blade.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Jean, i believe that Bill is actually showing us two completely different keris in his post. The style is not different on each side. These are not the same blade.

Ouch, confusing indeed, thanks!

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

I think that it is probably a recent creation, normally the blade is not carved through like yours, see a more traditional blade with dapur Lar Monga/ Urubing Dilah.

Most of the examples i have seen of winged elephants carved on blades are rather recent. Is your example an older one. The new examples i have seen do not seem to adhere to any rules of number of luks. I have seen this motif carved on everything from a straight (lurus) blade to 13 luk blades like Bill's and everything in between.
Are you aware of what the significance of the number of luks in the tradition form you speak of means or what place or meaning this particular winged elephant motif might serve?

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Most of the examples i have seen of winged elephants carved on blades are rather recent. Is your example an older one. The new examples i have seen do not seem to adhere to any rules of number of luks. I have seen this motif carved on everything from a straight (lurus) blade to 13 luk blades like Bill's and everything in between.
Are you aware of what the significance of the number of luks in the tradition form you speak of means or what place or meaning this particular winged elephant motif might serve?

Hello David,
My specimen seems to have some age and the elephant head not carved more recently but I can't guarantee it.
The 2 dapur types which I have mentioned with this winged elephant motif are recognized ones (Mangar Mongla with 3 luk by Haryoguritno and the reference book Dhapur, and Liman Lar with 11 luk in the EK). However I don't know whether the number of luks of the blades with this motif has any significance or not.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

However I don't know whether the number of luks of the blades with this motif has any significance or not.

Well, i would image that the number of luks generally carried some significance and that significance probably varies dependent upon the time period of the blade's origin. I have just never seen any of these laid out for any given era in any convincing manner. But why choose a particular number of luk for your keris if the number has no significance.

[A. G. Maisey]

Bill, you have invited comment on this keris.

Are you able to be more precise in respect of the information you would like to receive?

The motif in the sorsoran might be able to be understood as a flying elephant, how that might be able to be interpreted might be able to be associated with a Javanese cult, the talismanic qualities that the motif is believed to incorporate could depend upon how it is interpreted.

The name of the motif is manglar mongo (also manglar munga --- and several other spelling variations which can mean different things); the language can be read as Javanese, but it might be Kawi or corrupted Kawi. Over the years several native speakers of Javanese have given me a number of different meanings, and those meanings have varied, depending upon how they felt at the time.

As for the matter of luk meanings, it might be best not to go there, if we wish to finish this thread before Christmas 2019.

EDIT

I have just finished a telephone conversation with the most accomplished native speaker of Javanese with whom I am acquainted. He assures me that the words "manglar monga" and all variations in spelling thereof make no sense to him, however, in light of the fact that wings are involved, he has suggested that "manglar" should understood as being associated with wings, thus it should be understood as "mang + lar" = "to have grown wings".

His guess is that manga/munga/mongo/ & etc, etc, etc could be dialect or a different language entirely, possibly a language from Sulawesi or Sumatera, or even a level of Javanese that he does not use (he uses the normal four levels of Javanese when speaking Javanese).

So, looking at the motif of an elephant with wings, maybe one day we'll find out that for somebody, somewhere "munga" means elephant.

FURTHER EDIT

On the other hand, maybe this motif should not be referred to as "manglar mongo" at all, maybe it should be taken as "liman lar":- liman = elephant, lar = wings, liman lar is a legitimate motif, mostly in Madura keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As for the matter of luk meanings, it might be best not to go there, if we wish to finish this thread before Christmas 2019.

Well that's the nice thing about internet forums. A thread doesn't need to end this Christmas, next Christmas or ever for that matter. And we can walk away and come back to the subject again and again whenever there is more to say or share. Nothing really good comes quickly or easily.

[A. G. Maisey]

True David, true, but I think Ill stay out of luk discussion.