warangka for identification

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

The blade size, peculiar style of greneng, and tikel alis going thru the gandik point to Java North Coast IMO. From my (limited) experience the South Sumatran blades generally do not exceed about 37 cm long.
Regards

Well then, what do you think of my blade then? Over 41cm long, same greneng and tikel alis treatment. It has been dressed in what i have presumed was Sumatran dress for a very long time in a sheath that was most obviously made for the blade. I do know that some North Jawa figural hilts are sometimes confused with North Jawa, but the carving style on this looks more Sumatran to my eye and the selut as well. The shape of the sheath has alway seemed in a Sumatran style as well, but maybe if we can attach this form to North Jawa it might explain all the confusion over the original sheath presented here as well as my own. However, another of far greater knowledge than i also IDed this one as "typical Palembang" some years ago.
Please forgive this really bad cellphone photo taken in poor light, but when i looked it seems that i had neglected to take any over all photos of the dress on this keris.

[Gustav]

David, at the moment it's in my hands.

Jean, as David already wrote, such Tikel Alis and similar elongated Greneng can be seen on S-Sumatra blades. S-Sumatra blades tend to be smaller, but I know of some quite large specimens.

What is absolutely out of norm for S-Sumatra on the initial blade is the Mboto Rubuh Blumbangan.

As you can see, the edges ant the tip of the blade have been cleaned and treated with warangan. This must have happened already a while ago.

[Gustav]

more pics.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, what you have shown in this image I would call "typically Palembang" I wouldn't even think twice, or go looking for other possibilities, to me, this is Palembang.

However, when we begin to talk about blades, I need to think more than twice.

What I know is this:-

1) Palembang made keris blades vary across a wide range of styles; there is no uniquely Palembang style of blade.

2) Many Palembang keris used and use blades that originated in other localities.

3) Palembang was/is all about trade, people from all over the region moved and move in and out all the time

4) Javanese style blades that are larger than the Javanese blades that are customary in Central Jawa and East Jawa can usually be associated with North Coast and West Jawa, or with Lombok.

5) A gentle curve in the face of a gandhik is usually associated with West Jawa

6) A "brick laying down " (boto rubuh, elongated horizontally) blumbangan is associated with West Jawa and in a lesser degree, North Coast Jawa

7) The top of a gonjo needs to be able to conform to the type of dress that is common in the location where the keris was made, or where the gonjo was replaced

8) Overall blade style tends to be more or less related in any geographic location

9) Style and execution of detail in a blade can and does vary according to individual makers, variation is greatest at lower levels of quality.


The above are things I know to be true. I'm not guessing, I'm not floating possibilities. These things are things that I have been taught to be matters of fact, and that my own experience has verified.

If I use the above as a foundation for any opinion I may form, I am left with several possibilities and it becomes very difficult to use any one of those possibilities as a definite, supportable opinion based upon a photograph.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, what you have shown in this image I would call "typically Palembang" I wouldn't even think twice, or go looking for other possibilities, to me, this is Palembang.

Understood Alan. Here are more images of my blade then. I suppose what i am trying to establish are whether the two points Jean made are necessarily true for discounting my keris as Sumatran in origin.
1. that Sumatran keris are generally not over 37cm.
2. that the tikel alis is a sign that the keris may be North Coast Jawa.
Both my keris and the keris now in Gustav's care seem to carry these two traits. Does it discount a Sumatran origin?
You have added some other indicators that might place a keris in either North Coast Jawa or West Java.
1. I can see what might be a gentle curve in the gandik in the OP keris. Mine might also, though if it does the curve is even more subtle.
2. I am uncertain about boto rubuh in my case, though it certainly does not seem to be a standing brick.
So here are the rest of the photos of my keris. I see many similarities stylistically to the OP keris, but this, of course, does not necessarily mean they are of the same geographical origin.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, the points that I listed were not intended as indicators, but rather as "anti-indicators".

What I was trying to say was that these are things that I understand as being inarguably true, and that if I accept them as inarguably true, then it becomes pretty close to impossible for me to form an opinion in respect of Gustav's blade from only a picture.

I would consider your blade as having that slight curve in the face of the gandhik.

Is your blumbangan horizontally elongated? I am unable to form an opinion.

If I were to be shown a photo of a section of blade and asked where the blade might have come from, based on only the nature of the pamor, I think I would probably say East Jawa.

Show me only the gandhik I would say West Jawa to North Coast.

Blumbangan only, West Jawa to North Coast.

Greneng, anywhere across Jawa.

The tikel alis is what in Central Jawa is known as an old style tikel alis, not related to a geographic location, but related to period in time.

Jean's 37mm parameter is not one that I can have an opinion upon either one way or the other, I have never seen a sufficient number of keris blades that were definitely of Sumatran manufacture to be able to establish any sort of length parameter.

Your keris and Gustav's keris look very similar in the photos, neither keris appears to be particularly old, they are both in dress that in your case looks definitely Palembang, in Gustav's case it seems as if it could be Palembang. Two very similar keris, both in dress that seems to be able to be related to the same area? I don't know what I am looking at. I could come up with several hypotheticals, but I'm not going to do that because in my mind these constructed explanations really serve no purpose except to confuse.

Based upon what I believe I can see in these photographs I am unable to provide a supportable opinion on the origin of either of these blades, there are too many unknowns.

As a complete keris there can be no doubt that your keris is Palembang, but knowing what we do about the blades used in Palembang keris, is it possible to be certain that either your blade or Gustav's were actually made in Palembang?

[Jean]

Thank you David for showing us the full blade.... Its overall shape (angle of the ganja especially) looks different from the typical long blades from Java North Coast.
I attach the pic of a Palembang kris with a rather similar blade but only 25 cm long.
Regards

[Gustav]

David, here a picture of a kris, which was presented to George IV when Prince Regent by Stamford Raffles, 10 May 1817. No measurements, yet it could be smaller then yours - but exactly these straight S-Sumatra Keris with the same Ricikan are often longer then 38 cm.

[Gustav]

Mine is a bit different animal. Now I understand, it could come from West Java - a search shows, how much S-Sumatra, in fact whole Sumatra and Malay Peninsula, was at an earlier time period influenced by North/West Java (later by Central Java). The Java Demam hilt form originates there, perhaps even the typical S-Sumatran bell-like Selut.

From what I understand at the moment and am able to see, the blade could be earlier then 1800, the dress perhaps before 1850.

The same pictures in correct orientation.

[kai]

Hello David,

However, another of far greater knowledge than i also IDed this one as "typical Palembang" some years ago.

The dress of your Keris certainly is Palembang/Lampung. However, the dress seems fairly recent to me, probably quite a bit younger than the blade. Thus, we probably have to focus on the blade only; considering the differences with Gustav's blade though, I kinda doubt that it will bear much on placing the latter.

Anyway, it is certainly interesting to drive home the notion that a really wide variety of blades can be found in South Sumatran dress. Aside from the obviously strong influence of Mataram style on many blades, one also might expect quite a bit of carry-over from western Java (or Sunda-influenced regions in general).

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

The dress of your Keris certainly is Palembang/Lampung. However, the dress seems fairly recent to me, probably quite a bit younger than the blade. Thus, we probably have to focus on the blade only; considering the differences with Gustav's blade though, I kinda doubt that it will bear much on placing the latter.

Yes Kai, the dress is obviously later than the blade, which is probably the case with most keris that come up for discussion.
To be clear, the reason that i posted my own keris for comparison was to draw Jean's two assertions into question.
1. that sumatran keris are generally not larger than 37cm.
2. that the tikel alis passing into the gandik is more a North Coast trait.
These are traits that both my keris and Gustav's share as well as a very similar arrangement in the greneng and a flat, squared off buntut urang. Certainly there are many differences between my keris and Gustav's and given that Sumatran keris were greatly influenced by keris from Jawa i was not necessarily trying to develop a thesis to prove the origins of both. What i did what to know was if Jean's assertion held to greater scrutiny and if what he was saying discounted Sumatra as the origin of my own keris. Given what has been presented i feel quite comfortable continuing to identify my keris was Sumatran. Gustav's keris presents some other more difficult traits which perhaps makes it harder to be so definitive.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

1. that sumatran keris are generally not larger than 37mm.

Gosh, I did not say that
And after seeing the pic of the whole blade, I agree that it is probably from South Sumatra.
Regards