Matchlock gun of Afghanistan?

mahratt · 30th August 2018, 11:19 PM

By the way, maybe someone will think that the artist just painted matchlock is not realistic. And maybe someone will say that in fact the artist was thinking of portraying an ordinary Afghan jezail.
But, it's not. Pay attention to the following fragment of lithography from the same album:

Robert · 31st August 2018, 12:47 AM

Gentleman, The tone of the responses will become less aggressive and an atmosphere of decorum shall be maintained or I will be forced to lock this thread and ban the offending parties. Final warning.

Robert

bhushan_lawate · 31st August 2018, 06:58 AM

Hi --

A couple of clearer pics of the inscription and we can reasonably put the doubt to rest as it appears to have the name of the place/owner.

The script is Devanagari (used for Sanskrit, Hindi & Marathi languages) and the way the dot marks are - it could be attributed to the North West or Central states of India. -- so Indore could definitely be a possibility.

Also, important to note the depiction of "Ta" which is a short for "Taluka" or "District" if the legend is indeed "Ta" then the following word will be the name of the place and it will potentially also mean that the inscription is from a later date than the gun itself as "Districts" are a gift of the British Raj..

I'm sure there are more informed and knowledgeable forumites and we can all continue to learn as our fellow collectors acquire newer and newer "Old" collectibles...!!!

mahratt · 31st August 2018, 07:23 AM

bhushan_lawate, thanks for the info!

David R · 2nd September 2018, 11:19 AM

Regarding the rattan binding, personally I think that it is often used after more conventional capucines have been removed. If the originals were silver, either as simple capucines, or as "saddles" under leather or rawhide then I think they would have been removed as soon as the gun ceased to be used.

Pukka Bundook · 2nd September 2018, 02:44 PM

That makes sense, David.

Our big problem with all Indian arms, is that they tended to travel a lot, as war booty and later as trade items, so where a gun started out and where it was found and listed by say Lord Eggerton, can be two very different things.
Plus, since Eggerton's time, they can have shifted yet again, and no telling how many times!

As an example, I have a couple of matchlock barrels that fit the description in Eggerton as those found at Oude.
Now, Does that mean my barrels Come from Oude?
Or, bigger question;
Does this mean that those found at Oude by Eggerton were actually Made in that area, or does it mean merely that the barrels happened to be in Oude when he found them? (And made elsewhere?)
No, I am not trying to say it is hopeless trying to find where Indian arms come from, but we must not work off a false basis, and that means an awful lot of digging!
A very interesting arm in the OP....and well worth the digging!

Going back to my Oude barrels;
One of them had been very badly stocked up in Afghanistan, with saddle cappucines and all. Oude to the Afghan lands is quite a hike.

ariel · 2nd September 2018, 02:47 PM

David:

Interesting. So, do I understand correctly, that in your opinion rattan bindings are a sign of a “decommissioned” gun?

PB:

I fully agree. We see it with swords, daggers, blades, handles. The often used example of the Adoni arsenal is telling. Finding weapons from one well-defined area far away from their origin is rather commonplace. Internecine wars, invasions, trophies, trade, mass plunder all played roles in this “ transplantation”.

The attribution should follow their ethnic/ locality features rather than place of their usage. Egerton had a yataghan placed among the Nepalese weapons, a classical non sequitur.

Afghanistan is especially tough in this regard: Afghanis invaded India proper on many occasions, served as mercenaries in Indian armies and bought a lot of stuff there. Wars between Maratha and Afghan armies were grandiose and mutual invasions too multiple to remember. Not taking it into account may confuse historical assessment of their weapons which is a raison d’etre of this Forum.

rickystl · 2nd September 2018, 02:52 PM

Hello All

Well, this Thread has become an interesting conversation.

Mahratt: Thank you so much for the photo of the Sindi warriors with their percussion Jazails. First time I've seen this photo. Thank you !! As a curious side note: Every Sindh origin gun I've seen is either matchlock or percussion variation. While somewhere in Tirri's or Elgood's books there is one example of a Sindh gun in flintlock, they seem quite rare. You just never see them. It seems Sindh skipped the flintlock period for the most part, similar to Japan.

Butt Stock Design: It seems the different regions under the Ottoman Empire each had their own "general" preference in gun design. But as many, if not most of these guns were made on an individual (non-production) basis, I'm sure individual customer tastes were included. This, along with the common use and reuse of gun parts and the mix of cultures can sometimes make it difficult to pinpoint the original origin of some of these Ethno guns.

Corrodo's Gun: The barrel design replicates the general design of barrels made for Toradors in Northern and Central India. The swell at the breech and muzzle ends, the placement of the front and rear sights, the serpentine/trigger assembly, and the pan design are all clues of at least the barrel's origins. And the barrel may easily be from an earlier gun and re-used. The barrel is probably damascus but you can't tell from the extra heavy patina. Note the priming pan lacks a cover. But many were made this way.
Butt Stock: I note the butt stock curves downward, and then straight. But the circumference is still squareish like the Toradors. The Sindi and Afghan stocks curve downward and back up for fit under the armpit for carry.

So all this evidence tells me this gun was made in India - somewhere. LOL
The gun is a bit less than munitions grade. I think this gun was made for an individual for the least possible cost of material and labor, with what ever reusable parts the gunsmith had on hand at the time, including the use of the rattan bands. This would not at all be uncommon. Just my best guess on the gun in question.

Rick

Pukka Bundook · 2nd September 2018, 03:06 PM

Rick,

The stock carving of the gun in the O.P. also say India, rather than Afghanistan. (On underside ahead of the breech.)
Eggerton has one very similar, to both this one and the one Mahratt shows, and has them down as found in Indore.
(See my post above about origins! LOL!!)

Ariel,
Rattan could have been used originally, but we see many matchlocks with marks where bindings or cappucines Used to be, and I think as all kinds of bindings work, that it comes down to what was available, or was fashionable or was attractive to the present owner. I may be missing something though!

Best,
Richard.

30th August 2018, 11:19 PM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	By the way, maybe someone will think that the artist just painted matchlock is not realistic. And maybe someone will say that in fact the artist was thinking of portraying an ordinary Afghan jezail. But, it's not. Pay attention to the following fragment of lithography from the same album: Attached Images

2nd September 2018, 02:47 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	David: Interesting. So, do I understand correctly, that in your opinion rattan bindings are a sign of a “decommissioned” gun? PB: I fully agree. We see it with swords, daggers, blades, handles. The often used example of the Adoni arsenal is telling. Finding weapons from one well-defined area far away from their origin is rather commonplace. Internecine wars, invasions, trophies, trade, mass plunder all played roles in this “ transplantation”. The attribution should follow their ethnic/ locality features rather than place of their usage. Egerton had a yataghan placed among the Nepalese weapons, a classical non sequitur. Afghanistan is especially tough in this regard: Afghanis invaded India proper on many occasions, served as mercenaries in Indian armies and bought a lot of stuff there. Wars between Maratha and Afghan armies were grandiose and mutual invasions too multiple to remember. Not taking it into account may confuse historical assessment of their weapons which is a raison d’etre of this Forum. Last edited by ariel; 2nd September 2018 at 03:48 PM.

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31st August 2018, 12:47 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Gentleman, The tone of the responses will become less aggressive and an atmosphere of decorum shall be maintained or I will be forced to lock this thread and ban the offending parties. Final warning. Robert

31st August 2018, 06:58 AM	#3
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi -- A couple of clearer pics of the inscription and we can reasonably put the doubt to rest as it appears to have the name of the place/owner. The script is Devanagari (used for Sanskrit, Hindi & Marathi languages) and the way the dot marks are - it could be attributed to the North West or Central states of India. -- so Indore could definitely be a possibility. Also, important to note the depiction of "Ta" which is a short for "Taluka" or "District" if the legend is indeed "Ta" then the following word will be the name of the place and it will potentially also mean that the inscription is from a later date than the gun itself as "Districts" are a gift of the British Raj.. I'm sure there are more informed and knowledgeable forumites and we can all continue to learn as our fellow collectors acquire newer and newer "Old" collectibles...!!!

31st August 2018, 07:23 AM	#4
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	bhushan_lawate, thanks for the info!

2nd September 2018, 11:19 AM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,118	Regarding the rattan binding, personally I think that it is often used after more conventional capucines have been removed. If the originals were silver, either as simple capucines, or as "saddles" under leather or rawhide then I think they would have been removed as soon as the gun ceased to be used.

2nd September 2018, 02:44 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	That makes sense, David. Our big problem with all Indian arms, is that they tended to travel a lot, as war booty and later as trade items, so where a gun started out and where it was found and listed by say Lord Eggerton, can be two very different things. Plus, since Eggerton's time, they can have shifted yet again, and no telling how many times! As an example, I have a couple of matchlock barrels that fit the description in Eggerton as those found at Oude. Now, Does that mean my barrels Come from Oude? Or, bigger question; Does this mean that those found at Oude by Eggerton were actually Made in that area, or does it mean merely that the barrels happened to be in Oude when he found them? (And made elsewhere?) No, I am not trying to say it is hopeless trying to find where Indian arms come from, but we must not work off a false basis, and that means an awful lot of digging! A very interesting arm in the OP....and well worth the digging! Going back to my Oude barrels; One of them had been very badly stocked up in Afghanistan, with saddle cappucines and all. Oude to the Afghan lands is quite a hike.

2nd September 2018, 02:52 PM	#8
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hello All Well, this Thread has become an interesting conversation. Mahratt: Thank you so much for the photo of the Sindi warriors with their percussion Jazails. First time I've seen this photo. Thank you !! As a curious side note: Every Sindh origin gun I've seen is either matchlock or percussion variation. While somewhere in Tirri's or Elgood's books there is one example of a Sindh gun in flintlock, they seem quite rare. You just never see them. It seems Sindh skipped the flintlock period for the most part, similar to Japan. Butt Stock Design: It seems the different regions under the Ottoman Empire each had their own "general" preference in gun design. But as many, if not most of these guns were made on an individual (non-production) basis, I'm sure individual customer tastes were included. This, along with the common use and reuse of gun parts and the mix of cultures can sometimes make it difficult to pinpoint the original origin of some of these Ethno guns. Corrodo's Gun: The barrel design replicates the general design of barrels made for Toradors in Northern and Central India. The swell at the breech and muzzle ends, the placement of the front and rear sights, the serpentine/trigger assembly, and the pan design are all clues of at least the barrel's origins. And the barrel may easily be from an earlier gun and re-used. The barrel is probably damascus but you can't tell from the extra heavy patina. Note the priming pan lacks a cover. But many were made this way. Butt Stock: I note the butt stock curves downward, and then straight. But the circumference is still squareish like the Toradors. The Sindi and Afghan stocks curve downward and back up for fit under the armpit for carry. So all this evidence tells me this gun was made in India - somewhere. LOL The gun is a bit less than munitions grade. I think this gun was made for an individual for the least possible cost of material and labor, with what ever reusable parts the gunsmith had on hand at the time, including the use of the rattan bands. This would not at all be uncommon. Just my best guess on the gun in question. Rick

2nd September 2018, 03:06 PM	#9
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Rick, The stock carving of the gun in the O.P. also say India, rather than Afghanistan. (On underside ahead of the breech.) Eggerton has one very similar, to both this one and the one Mahratt shows, and has them down as found in Indore. (See my post above about origins! LOL!!) Ariel, Rattan could have been used originally, but we see many matchlocks with marks where bindings or cappucines Used to be, and I think as all kinds of bindings work, that it comes down to what was available, or was fashionable or was attractive to the present owner. I may be missing something though! Best, Richard.