The question of Egypt

[ariel]

Weapons studded with corals are usually attributable to Turkey proper and to Algeria. The latter had the richest coral deposits .
Moran has asked a good question: come to think of it, I also am unfamiliar with any Egyptian weapons. Mamluks till 16 century, Ottoman thereafter.
Something is indeed very strange: Morocco, Tunis, their Kabyle tribes, Algeria, even Tuaregs, - all had their national bladed weapons. But not the Egyptians.
Teodor might be correct: Egypt was ruled by foreigners for centuries, and they brought their weapons.
What about Libya?

[motan]

Hi,
Thank you all for your response, but particularly TVV who gave a good overview of the Egyptian situation. I think that this phenomenon is wider than Egypt alone.
In early Ottoman period, Ottoman military ruled and had all the weapons. Soldiers who were drafted in Albania, the Caucasus, and the Balkan brought their own regional weapons with them and these mixed into the wider Ottoman culture.

In later Ottoman period, the control over their territory became weaker and less centralized. More local dagger types emerged, but only where tribes and clans with independent character were present, like in, Lower Iraq, the Syrian desert, in Druze and Christian mountain strongholds and Kurdistan.
Eytan

[ariel]

Yes, it is wider.
The best known ( to me) example is what we now call Russia.
Originally , a hodge-pudge of Ugro- Finnish and Slavic tribes , manufacturing simple cutting and chopping tools without any distinctions. Then, they were controlled by the Vikings, and adopted their weapons. Then, they were conquered by the Mongols and swapped their straight swords and daggers for sabers. Then, with the emergence of a Russian State, they got access to Turkish and Persian weapons , and from there on their weapons acquired “ Islamic” overtones. Peter the Great tried to remake Russia into a semblance of a European society and armed his military with European weapons.

And then, as a cherry on top, Caucasian War radically changed Russian military fashions: shashka and kindjail became a basis for regulation weapons, aristocracy and even Tsars started sporting Caucasian garb. A unique example of the vanquished dictating the fashions to the victors.

The best they could achieve was a production of standard weapons of their era ( whatever it was at the time) with a lot of bling and artistic embellishments.

But the “Russian” pattern of whatever weapons , unlike Indian, Persian or Arab traditions never emerged.

[TVV]

Libya is an interesting question, but we have to remember that historically it was divided into a Fezzan, with a mostly Tuareg culture and weapons, Cyrenaica and Tripolitania. We know that there was at least one sword type in Tripolitania and probably parts of Tunisia, which has a wooden or horn hilt somewhat resembling takouba (but of one piece construction) that was characeteristic of the region. Why no dagger styles emerged is a good question, to which I personally have no good explanation - other areas of the Maghreb were also under heavy Ottoman influence, with Janissary descendants favoring firearms, yataghans and swords manufactured in the Balkans, but local styles, even in imitation of Ottoman forms still emerged. Apart from one sword hilt style, the coastal areas of what is nowadays Libya seem to have fully adopted imported Ottoman weapons, as we can see from the trophies brought back by the US Marines in the early 19th century.

[ariel]

Teodor, bravo! You have memory size of British Library!:-)

Here is the my Tunisian sword described by Teodor.It sports a British dragoon blade second half of 18 century.
Also shown the original British sword with a similar blade but in its original garb.

Thom Richardson in his book " Islamic Arms and Armour", p.70 based on the collection of Royal Armoury in Leeds defines Tunisian swords as " very rare"

Not for nothing one with intact crossguard but without a scabbard was sold at Czerny's for 1000 euros + 28% premium.
https://classic.liveauctioneers.com/...967484_a-sword

[Ian]

In looking back through archived materials from 2003, I found this old thread started by ruel on the subject of "missing" Egyptian edged weapons. Its conclusions are very similar to discussions here.


http://web.archive.org/web/200306260...ML/001583.html


Ian

[ariel]

I would definitely agree that Ruel’s hypothesis may have a lot of merit.

It would make very little sense that a large, militarily powerful and rich state like Egypt would not have its own weapon industry.

The question, however, is somewhat different: did post-Mamluk Egypt produce its own patterns that were truly indigenous and different from the Ottoman? Just like Motan, I do not know of any.


On the other hand, some “Ottoman” kilijes from 18-19 centuries carry decorative elements traditionally attributable to Syria, a former Mamluk domain and even at that time governed by Egypt. Astvatsaturian in her book «Turkish Arms” shows a classical Turkish Pala belonging to Prince Mstislavski ( 16 century) signed “Qasym the Egyptian from Cairo”. Recently, a gorgeous Kilij was sold on an internet auction: it was inscribed as a gift from Muhammad Ali Pasha to a British functionary and dated early 19 century. Most likely, it must have been of a local Egyptian manufacture.

The situation must have been similar to the weapons from the Balkans: local manufacture but Turkish patterns.

On the other hand, we can turn the tables 180 degrees: Mamluks, even prior to their defeat at the hands of Ottoman Turks, had swords that are in fact classic kilijes. It might be possible to suggest that the Turkish ones are just reproductions of the Egyptian Mamluk examples , and that what we call Ottoman kilij/pala is in fact an indigenous Egyptian sword.