2018 ethnographic weapon

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for outlining your point of view Thomas.

In respect of forge work, I have always found that the use of coke and charcoal is far more satisfying than the use of a gas forge. Welding in a gas forge is not difficult, welding in coke or charcoal is a whole other world, and by using coke or charcoal, we position ourselves very close to the smiths of the past, even if we do use electric blowers.

I have used bellows instead of an electric blower, and what I found was that the fire (it was teak charcoal) was much more easily controlled with the bellows than with the electric blower. I've used a farriers hand-blown forge also, WWI vintage, and although for a number of reasons I find it fairly difficult to use, it also gives very good fire control.

I learnt to weld when the only fuel available to the smith I learnt from was coal, this meant that I needed to coke the coal before I could consider welding. Although I have found river sand to be a good flux for iron or mild steel, I have not found it satisfactory for welds involving high carbon steel, in a coke fire anhydrous borax is a satisfactory flux, but often no flux at all is necessary, especially in a teak charcoal fire. Use of a flux is very often the base cause of weld flaw.

I do appreciate your response to my question, Thomas, and I thank you for it, but the main thrust of my curiosity was not so much the forge work, which really is pretty simple and straight forward once the basics are understood, but rather, your approach to the bench work. I am curious to know if you use similar tools and techniques to the blade smiths of olden times for the actual making of the blade, rather than the making of the forging from which the blade will emerge.

[David]

Hi Thomas. Firstly let me say that is is a beautiful weapon that you have created. You should be proud of your accomplishment. I think we could call it many things. Well designed. Nicely crafted. Beautiful to look at. In hand we might be able to add more observations on functionality and design. But i am afraid that the one thing, by its very definition, that we cannot call it is an ethnographic weapon.
As fun as this is to see my personal feeling is that it is just not what we do here on these forums. We are not a knife maker's forum. There are in fact many of those out there on the internet as i am sure you know. I also know that we have a fair number of aspiring smiths in our membership. My fear is that a thread like this opens the door for a flood of knife making threads that seems a bit of a distraction from the intended focus of this site. I would suggest that unless Lee is prepared to open up a new sub-group called Newly Made Fantasy Blades Based Upon Ethnographic Designs that we might be better off leaving such discussions for other venues.
But these are just my personal opinions, not a moderation decree. If the mods here on the Ethno Forum wish to continue this discussion so be it.

[fernando]

I fully subscribe David's assessment ... with no moderation authority, either.

[kronckew]

As an item which will probably never be used as a weapon, but illustrates some of the motifs, materials and techniques used in ethnic weaponry, maybe it could find a home in the Ethnic Miscellania section?

[fernando]

Can't call it a preposterous idea, Wayne .

[David]

Originally Posted by kronckew

As an item which will probably never be used as a weapon, but illustrates some of the motifs, materials and techniques used in ethnic weaponry, maybe it could find a home in the Ethnic Miscellania section?

Well again, i was merely expressing the facts concerning the definition of ethnographic and my opinion that discussions of modern blade craft and methods of forging are somewhat outside the intent and purposes of these forums. I suppose this thread could be moved to another forum, but this isn't actually Ethnographic Miscellania either. Though it may have some future collectors scratching their heads a hundred or so years from now if it loses its line of provenance it is not actually an ethnographic anything.

[kronckew]

It's German ethnographic. A future antique.

A SchwartzenWalderKirschTorteGrossenMesser.

[thomas hauschild]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thank you for outlining your point of view Thomas.

In respect of forge work, I have always found that the use of coke and charcoal is far more satisfying than the use of a gas forge. Welding in a gas forge is not difficult, welding in coke or charcoal is a whole other world, and by using coke or charcoal, we position ourselves very close to the smiths of the past, even if we do use electric blowers.

I have used bellows instead of an electric blower, and what I found was that the fire (it was teak charcoal) was much more easily controlled with the bellows than with the electric blower. I've used a farriers hand-blown forge also, WWI vintage, and although for a number of reasons I find it fairly difficult to use, it also gives very good fire control.

I learnt to weld when the only fuel available to the smith I learnt from was coal, this meant that I needed to coke the coal before I could consider welding. Although I have found river sand to be a good flux for iron or mild steel, I have not found it satisfactory for welds involving high carbon steel, in a coke fire anhydrous borax is a satisfactory flux, but often no flux at all is necessary, especially in a teak charcoal fire. Use of a flux is very often the base cause of weld flaw.

I do appreciate your response to my question, Thomas, and I thank you for it, but the main thrust of my curiosity was not so much the forge work, which really is pretty simple and straight forward once the basics are understood, but rather, your approach to the bench work. I am curious to know if you use similar tools and techniques to the blade smiths of olden times for the actual making of the blade, rather than the making of the forging from which the blade will emerge.

A.G.

Yes I agree absolutly to 100 % . This is the way that I realy like to go ( in the future) Life is a compromise. The normal business as a production manager need more than 50 h a week, the neighboors say nothing when I will grind and forge on saturday( but they will not like the smoke of a coal fire ) Here in this area there are a lot of friends making iron in the 100 % traditional way. The Solingen museum is nearby and I have to less time to take part of all these kind of actions. Maybe in a decade when retirement comes by. At the moment I‘m happy with any piece that I finish and that piece above needed some month to finish. There were a lot things going to my mind while taking antique pieces in my hand and trying to do something like this ( unable to make it at the end ) I just want to share my grown respect for the former craftmen.

Best Thomas

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your response Thomas.

Yes, coal smoke can be something that attracts a lot of attention, however smoke from coke is really only noticeable in the start-up phase, and smoke from charcoal is no more obtrusive than smoke from a BBQ.

Certainly a hammer on an anvil does make some noise, but in a normal residential environment it is really no more than might be expected from the usual weekend activity of home maintenance, certainly not something for anybody to get upset about. Of course, any type of heavy power hammer, even an Oliver, is out of the question in a residential setting.

Grinding can be very noisy, as can any machine process, but use of other techniques can reduce noise considerably, and in my experience are not noticeably slower for finely crafted work. For example, if you use an angle grinder to remove fire scale, the softer heart of the forging is exposed and it is easy to file, particularly so if the forging has been annealed prior to beginning the bench work.

Files, scrapers, cold chisels, and the use of rubbing sticks, rather than machine processes can reduce noise to almost nothing, and the use of these techniques automatically assumes the nature of a form of active meditation.

Try using the old way of doing things Thomas, it is far more satisfying than using electricity.

Yes, I know I have just recommended use of an angle grinder, and angle grinders use electricity, however it takes only a few minutes to remove fire scale from a forging, and the processing following removal of the scale is not something that can be heard outside the workshop. Fire scale can be removed with a file, but it is a lengthy process and wears out the file.


As to time taken to produce historically accurate items, the longest time I ever spent on a blade --- note, "BLADE" not a complete knife --- was 49 man-days, +/- 400 man-hours. Time is totally irrelevant when one is attempting to achieve perfection.

[A. G. Maisey]

Gentlemen, Thomas may be producing modern interpretations of antique weaponry, but it is not able to be argued that simply because this work by Thomas is both modern, and an interpretation, it disqualifies the work from consideration as an ethnological artifact.

Ethnology is way of learning about the world from the perspective of social relationships. It can be involved in both sociology and anthropology, and can examine the diversity of our own culture and society, as well as the diversity of foreign cultures and societies, both in the present, and in the past.

I do agree that in this Forum most participants hold an interest in weaponry that is either foreign to their own culture, or weaponry that is antique, or both these things, but the elements of antiquity and foreignness are not necessary to define ethnology, quite the opposite in fact.

My personal opinion is that people like Thomas should be encouraged as contributors, not sent into oblivion, as only a maker can understand the intricacies of actually making something, and the knowledge of the maker is invaluable to any person who attempts to understand the things in which he has an interest.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My personal opinion is that people like Thomas should be encouraged as contributors, not sent into oblivion, as only a maker can understand the intricacies of actually making something, and the knowledge of the maker is invaluable to any person who attempts to understand the things in which he has an interest.

Alan, i don't believe anyone has even remotely suggested banishment to oblivion.

I've been a maker all my life. I'll have to upload some shots of the railroad spike knife and axe i forged. They don't have anywhere near the fine craft of Thomas' beautiful chopper here. But they do serve realtime ritual purpose and cultural significance.

[Robert]

Gentlemen, Thomas may be producing modern interpretations of antique weaponry, but it is not able to be argued that simply because this work by Thomas is both modern, and an interpretation, it disqualifies the work from consideration as an ethnological artifact.

Ethnology is way of learning about the world from the perspective of social relationships. It can be involved in both sociology and anthropology, and can examine the diversity of our own culture and society, as well as the diversity of foreign cultures and societies, both in the present, and in the past.

I do agree that in this Forum most participants hold an interest in weaponry that is either foreign to their own culture, or weaponry that is antique, or both these things, but the elements of antiquity and foreignness are not necessary to define ethnology, quite the opposite in fact.

My personal opinion is that people like Thomas should be encouraged as contributors, not sent into oblivion, as only a maker can understand the intricacies of actually making something, and the knowledge of the maker is invaluable to any person who attempts to understand the things in which he has an interest.

Thank you for putting into words so precisely what I have been trying without success to do all day.

Best,
Robert

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your reassurances David, and although much appreciated, I am certain they are unnecessary. Just as nobody in this thread has recommended that Thomas be banished, I also did not suggest that banishment was being considered by anybody, however if this current thread were to be moved from the Ethnographic Weapons Forum, into the Ethnographic Miscellanea Forum I do feel that such action could result in Thomas' contribution to our mutual interest being forgotten, and oblivion is the state of having been forgotten.

The fact that you, yourself, have had experience in the craft of metal working is itself evidence of the varied ethnicity of North American culture. When we involve ourselves in ethnographic studies, we are indulging in a very broad based discipline, and where weaponry is an element of that ethnographic study, it becomes extremely difficult to define a boundary.

Thomas' work is certainly not old, it is not replication of weaponry from an identifiable culture, but it is extremely difficult to argue that it does not fit into the parameters of ethnographic study.

[fernando]

Perhaps this is a case of perspectives, so that the strict acceptation of the Ethnography appears to refer the descriptive study of facts of civilization of the diverse peoples and ethnicities. Everything runs harmoniously on a tacit basis or consensus, until something apparently off scope runs into the club. Scope ... would be precisely the gauge that defines a frontier within which an implement fits into accepted discussion.
It is pertinent to say that Thomas piece doesn't fit in the Miscellania forum, but because its scope comprehending "ethnographic artifacts other than arms and armor" still raises one or another doubt in this case.
Would this be an European item, doubts would not arise, as the scope of such forum makes it clear that replicas or modern items are better dealt in more adequate venues.
So reputing any individual modern creation, providing that it has a blade, as an ethnographic weapon, may be taken by some as a rather subjective interpretation; one that can be validated or rejected by the respective forum moderators, of course. This not meaning that eventual opinions that this is not an ethnographic artifact are not valid, hence risking the whipping post.
And of course this is not about to encourage or discourage those who create whatever they intend; is more about something being or not in the adequate territory.
Mind you, all just impressions of an ignaro .