Help with ID

[Rick]

[QUOTE=M ELEY] In my opinion (and it is ONLY that), this is an old East India Company sword blade with a later (perhaps mid to late 19th c.) hilt similar to a kastane. I don't think it was made for a market sale, but for honest-to-goodness reuse as a weapon. The hilt could have been refitted in a Dutch trading post such as Shri Lanka. Now, let me be shot down by others- [QUOTE]

When I look at the hilt I think Ceylon Mark.

It looks like there was a forward quillon, now gone.

But those plates look like they'd hurt the hand if you choked up on the hilt in use.
Possibly the owner could comment on this with it in hand.

[Hammondtx]

Thanks all for the information, it's been interesting researching this. I buy, sell and trade antiques, acquired this sword in a trade. The man I got it from said it was his grandfathers but didn't know anything about his grandfathers travels or dealings. He remembered his grandfather showing it to him as a child but knew nothing else about it.

The plates on the sides aren't uncomfortable at all. I hardly notice them when holding it in hand. Here are some close up pictures of the sword in hand. I'm 6'4" and my hand is a tight fit. My thumb and index finger kind of lay flat on the sides of the plates. I don't feel the points at all.

I can't tell if the hilt is hollow or solid, it's very heavy. It does wiggle a bit if I shake it around but I wouldn't say is was really loose, just moves a fraction.

If you look at the first picture I posted there is a triangle shaped wedge cut out of the side of the dragons neck. Does this look like a repair or is that how it was made?

[Rick]

Well, it looks like it is a cut made by hand and soldered or brazed.
You can see that the bottom of one seam looks like it's still open.
I can't imagine accidental damage not deforming the metal around the area.

So maybe this is from the remounting (if it's not the original) of this hilt; and maybe in polish it may not show as clearly.

[Peter Dekker]

Hi guys,

I'm a bit late to the party, but the sword is probably from Sumatra. They had a tradition of these lion-headed European style hilts with stirrup type guard. Many VOC blades ended up there in local mounts.

See for another example, with markings to a local Sumatran ruler on the scabbard: https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item...sumatran-saber

[M ELEY]

Thanks for the fascinating link, Peter!

[Jim McDougall]

I agree with Mark, totally fascinating entry on the Sumatran possibility, and the similarity is compelling. What I found most fascinating in the sword of the OP is that curious octagonal escutcheon on the guard. As you note, the tradition of the lionhead seems to have well influenced numbers of hilts throughout the VOC spheres in the East Indies.

While the 'sinha' (=lionhead) of the kastane appears to have either derived from the European lionheads so often on Dutch swords, or evolved indigenously from earlier symbolism of the lion, the parallels are compelling. Whatever the case, the stirrup hilt with lion head hilt in the character of the religious symbolism of these regions is well known as European influence affected the court and status oriented swords of these regions. As noted in the excellent entry in Peter's site on the pedang lurus, these seem to have been nominally influenced by European hunting swords, and the gestalt is remarkably notable.

With the octagonal escutcheon on the guard of this sword, I am inclined to think perhaps it is intended to represent the Ka'bah, which among other things is regarded as the Qu'ranic symbol of paradise. As Sumatra is predominantly Muslim, perhaps this might be the intended representation.

The Ka'bah is apparently often used in Islamic architecture, and of course various material culture. It seems in many elements of arms decoration, architectural features serve as inspiration for their design.

As noted in earlier discussion, this escutcheon does not seem particularly ergonomically friendly, but then neither is the hilt of the kastane. These are intended as court or dress type accoutrements and not as primarily combat weapons.

As far as I have seen, the octagonal escutcheon on this example is the only one I have seen on sword hilts, and it would be interesting to see the use of this symbol on other hilts or decoration.

[Will M]

Very nice find, the date 1776 is attractive to US collectors.
The join in the brass hilt is interesting, any idea why it is there? Possibly a repaired casting flaw? The wear from polishing on the hilt gives it good character.

[Peter Dekker]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

With the octagonal escutcheon on the guard of this sword, I am inclined to think perhaps it is intended to represent the Ka'bah, which among other things is regarded as the Qu'ranic symbol of paradise. As Sumatra is predominantly Muslim, perhaps this might be the intended representation.

The Ka'bah is apparently often used in Islamic architecture, and of course various material culture. It seems in many elements of arms decoration, architectural features serve as inspiration for their design.

As noted in earlier discussion, this escutcheon does not seem particularly ergonomically friendly, but then neither is the hilt of the kastane. These are intended as court or dress type accoutrements and not as primarily combat weapons.

As far as I have seen, the octagonal escutcheon on this example is the only one I have seen on sword hilts, and it would be interesting to see the use of this symbol on other hilts or decoration.

You may well be right in its symbolic meaning.

For some reason, the various people of Sumatran came up with a number of weapons -including actual user grade types- that do not seem to be very ergonomic to us. A good example is the sikin panjang with pointy crowns that holds anything but nice, but several survive with fighting damage in the blades. (See: https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item...-sikin-panjang)