Unusual nimcha blade: need help

Kubur · 5th May 2018, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

My hat is off to the owner of the French auction house: he managed to weave a tale fancy enough to suck out €5000 ( plus, I gather, no less than 20% commission) out of some gullible schmuck.

Did he also have for sale Brooklyn Bridge with a graffiti “ Tipy ( sic!) Sultan lives matter”?

Well it doesn't look like a fake at all... and why???

Plus the funny thing is that your sword is just supporting the provenance of the sword that I posted...

But if I follow your opinion then we come back to my first post, your sword might be a fake with a nimcha hilt and an Indian blade, both are easy to find for collectors...

I think you have to chose between: all fakes or both examples supporting each other...

TVV · 5th May 2018, 06:33 PM

I did not interpret Ariel's post to suggest the ivory hilted sword is not a genuine antique. I cannot speak for him, but it sounded like he doubted the Caucasus attribution. Personally, to me an Indian blade sounds more plausible - we know the Indians could produce excellent quality blades that looked indistinguishable from European blades, and if the sword was indeed collected in Mysore, that would seem a lot more plausible.

ariel · 6th May 2018, 03:45 AM

Theodor,

You hit the nail on the head: of course neither of the 2 nimchas is a “fake”. The blade on the French one is not Caucasian, that is as much as one can figure out from a single pic. And, BTW, doesn’t its handle look South Arabian rather than Moroccan?
The question is exactly as you say: is the blade a genuine European trade one or an outstanding Indian copy of it?
Somehow, I have never asked this question and never even thought about it.
Will be glad to get some hints.

TVV · 6th May 2018, 07:47 AM

Ariel,

Good question on the hilt. Assuming the blade is Indian and the whole sword collected in Mysore, it would be tempting to think it could be from Southern Arabia. However, I am afraid it is Algerian. Compare to pictures of a sword in the Rijksmuseum captured by the Dutch captain Michiel de Ruyter in the second half of the 17th century in terms of shape of hilt and guard. There is a whole group of these nimchas with tortoise shell on the hilt and brass guards in museum and private collections. The Bashir Mohammad book mentions that several were collected as trophies by the Spanish in 1732 following the siege of Oran and taken to the Real Armeria, and so this hilt is clearly of Maghrebi origin.

I am not sure why the auction house described the blade as made in the Caucasus. However, given that this type of nimcha hilt was in fashion during the century preceding Tipu's rule, it is actually possible for one to have traveled all the way to Mysore.

Teodor

ariel · 6th May 2018, 01:23 PM

Theodor,
My reference to South Arabia was based on Robert Hales’ book.
He shows a whole bunch of Omani nimchas with nearly identical IVORY handles, likely made in Zanzibar, Pemba etc. ( pp. 237-239).

I think that a more realistic scenario for the French sword would be just an Indian trade blade mounted in Oman on a locally-made handle. At least we know that Omanis traded with India extensively and even owned a part of Baluchistan. A picture of the cartouche shows what seems to look like Indian crystalline Wootz.

The circuitous route “ Caucasus- Mysore-Morocco” is far too complex for the Occam’s rule. Moreover, the Caucasus point is plainly wrong, and the Mysore one is based on just a misspelled name Tipy( sic!).

TVV · 6th May 2018, 06:06 PM

Ariel,

To me the swords from Hales book, which we have seen used in the Comoros, are different in terms of shape, decoration and guard, and I suspect at least a century later. A better comparison from Hales would be #584. For what it is worth, the material on the hilt in question looks like walrus as opposed to elephant ivory on the Eastern African ones.

Teodor

Kubur · 6th May 2018, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Ariel,

To me the swords from Hales book, which we have seen used in the Comoros, are different in terms of shape, decoration and guard, and I suspect at least a century later. A better comparison from Hales would be #584. For what it is worth, the material on the hilt in question looks like walrus as opposed to elephant ivory on the Eastern African ones.

Teodor

Of course Teodor you're right, plus we have around 1000 posts about this topic...

6th May 2018, 07:47 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Ariel, Good question on the hilt. Assuming the blade is Indian and the whole sword collected in Mysore, it would be tempting to think it could be from Southern Arabia. However, I am afraid it is Algerian. Compare to pictures of a sword in the Rijksmuseum captured by the Dutch captain Michiel de Ruyter in the second half of the 17th century in terms of shape of hilt and guard. There is a whole group of these nimchas with tortoise shell on the hilt and brass guards in museum and private collections. The Bashir Mohammad book mentions that several were collected as trophies by the Spanish in 1732 following the siege of Oran and taken to the Real Armeria, and so this hilt is clearly of Maghrebi origin. I am not sure why the auction house described the blade as made in the Caucasus. However, given that this type of nimcha hilt was in fashion during the century preceding Tipu's rule, it is actually possible for one to have traveled all the way to Mysore. Teodor Attached Images

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5th May 2018, 06:33 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	I did not interpret Ariel's post to suggest the ivory hilted sword is not a genuine antique. I cannot speak for him, but it sounded like he doubted the Caucasus attribution. Personally, to me an Indian blade sounds more plausible - we know the Indians could produce excellent quality blades that looked indistinguishable from European blades, and if the sword was indeed collected in Mysore, that would seem a lot more plausible.

6th May 2018, 03:45 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Theodor, You hit the nail on the head: of course neither of the 2 nimchas is a “fake”. The blade on the French one is not Caucasian, that is as much as one can figure out from a single pic. And, BTW, doesn’t its handle look South Arabian rather than Moroccan? The question is exactly as you say: is the blade a genuine European trade one or an outstanding Indian copy of it? Somehow, I have never asked this question and never even thought about it. Will be glad to get some hints.

6th May 2018, 01:23 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Theodor, My reference to South Arabia was based on Robert Hales’ book. He shows a whole bunch of Omani nimchas with nearly identical IVORY handles, likely made in Zanzibar, Pemba etc. ( pp. 237-239). I think that a more realistic scenario for the French sword would be just an Indian trade blade mounted in Oman on a locally-made handle. At least we know that Omanis traded with India extensively and even owned a part of Baluchistan. A picture of the cartouche shows what seems to look like Indian crystalline Wootz. The circuitous route “ Caucasus- Mysore-Morocco” is far too complex for the Occam’s rule. Moreover, the Caucasus point is plainly wrong, and the Mysore one is based on just a misspelled name Tipy( sic!). Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 6th May 2018 at 04:30 PM.

6th May 2018, 06:06 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Ariel, To me the swords from Hales book, which we have seen used in the Comoros, are different in terms of shape, decoration and guard, and I suspect at least a century later. A better comparison from Hales would be #584. For what it is worth, the material on the hilt in question looks like walrus as opposed to elephant ivory on the Eastern African ones. Teodor