Greaves-Winston typology

[Peter Dekker]

Hi Ian,

So nice to hear from you!

Originally Posted by Ian

(not to mention the similar swords made in Yunnan).

Ah yes. It seems Yunnan produced a large variety of knives, swords and daggers at the time that catered to many different markets, from Chinese to the many minorities in mainland southeast Asia. Ming scholar, art collector and connoisseur Gao Lian wrote in his Eight Discourses on the art of living (1591) that having a sword in one's study was good practice. An antique was preferred, but: "for those who cannot afford an antique sword for their study, modern-made ones from Yunnan are acceptable.".

I found it quite interesting to read that a scholar from China's east coast would recommend a sword from a tribal region, but I later found out that Yunnan had huge iron deposits and has been a sword making center for about two milennia. Bell notes they also catered to Burma, this text implies they also catered to the Chinese upper-class. It makes one wonder, how many Chinese and SE Asian swords we're looking at with Yunnan-made blades.

Originally Posted by Ian

In rethinking the subject of classifying dha/daab, I believe we need to consider a mix of ethnic and geographic features and the time periods in which these weapons were produced.

I can see how that's a tough nut to crack! It seems that the same happened in 19th century "dha land" as happened in many cultures: Once isolated areas got more and more connected through trade and so some distinctions faded, while other local styles were adopted more widely. Hendley mentions exactly the same happening in mid 19th century India. In Japan, a similar thing happened at the beginning of the Tokugawa area when smiths started to travel more and boundaries between certain styles faded somewhat.

Originally Posted by Ian

Peter, I'm pleased to hear your interest in dha and their classification. The real knowledge of these weapons lies within the various cultures and I think there is often a reluctance to share that cultural information with outsiders. I know of a couple of people who have penetrated local Thai groups and learned a great deal, but it is a rare event.

Hmmm.. No doubt a lot can be learned from unbroken lineages, but I also remain quite wary of oral traditions passed on to today. Let's say concepts of what truth and fact are, are not universally shared.

My main area is Chinese arms of the Qing dynasty and lots of misinformation here actually comes "from the culture's own oral traditions". While there are some pearls of wisdom to be found, a lot of information shared in training halls today, or by revival craftsmen, is proven plain wrong by the Qing's own administrative texts.

Unfortunately, I don't think such vast documentation survives from Burma and surrounding areas so maybe we indeed have no choice.

Originally Posted by Ian

If you have some specific questions then please post them here and perhaps we can all improve our collective knowledge.

Will certainly do! One question that comes to mind at the moment is a remark that accompanies some swords on Bowditch' website: "The large number of bands on the scabbard may indicate a person of rather high rank (general or higher)."

Do you know what source this info is from? I would love to learn more, for example when it was observed and by whom.

Thanks so far!

[Ian]

Hi Peter,

Yes, southern and western Yunnan is an interesting source of swords and trade into neighboring areas. Nathan was very helpful in identifying the Achang people from the HuSa area who have a long history of bladesmithing. Legend has it that these people are descended from Ming soldiers sent to Yunnan in the 14th C. and who stayed on. There are some very well made and serviceable blades that still come from these smiths. In the northern part of the Burmese-China border, there is trade with the Kachin, Lisu, Naga, and north into Assam and Tibet. Further south we see their influence into eastern Burma, the Shan States, northern Thailand, Laos, and as far east as Vietnam. I have several of the HuSa dha and dao, marked with the regional name in Chinese characters. The Achang people identify mostly with the Shan, also a distinguished Chinese race that was forced south about 800-900 years ago.

I would encourage you to research the swords of Yunnan from a Chinese perspective, as much of what has been discussed here has been from the viewpoint of infiltration of these weapons into neighboring areas of mainland SE Asia.

Ian.