Newly-made Minangkabau Keris Naga

[Sajen]

Here a comparison from the newly made keris with the old/antique one which was shown in a previous thread.

[Sajen]

Agree with Gustav, the smith is improving. But when I would have the choice I would take the antique example.

And can we call the new example a Minang keris? I think not. It's still a Madura blade to copy a Minang blade IMVHO.
Not my cup of tea neither.

[alexish]

In fact, I modelled my newly-made keris more closely to Jean's Minangkabau Naga Keris, as shown in the attached picture.

Actually, I deliberately asked the keris-maker to omit the Naga tail, and put a sogokan instead, as I felt that a sogokan would flow better with the malela-style fullers and the pamor Lawe Satukel. In fact, I see the pamor Lawe Satukel as a replacement for the Naga tail.

[David]

Originally Posted by alexish

In fact, I modelled my newly-made keris more closely to Jean's Minangkabau Naga Keris, as shown in the attached picture.

Actually, I deliberately asked the keris-maker to omit the Naga tail, and put a sogokan instead, as I felt that a sogokan would flow better with the malela-style fullers and the pamor Lawe Satukel. In fact, I see the pamor Lawe Satukel as a replacement for the Naga tail.

Alexish, i did note when you posted this how the pamor lawe satukel mimics the flowing motion of a serpent. You are definitely creating your own thing here though, so perhaps we could refer to this as a MinangAlexish keris.
You have taken different influence and created a bit of a mash-up here. Though artistic license has always been at play in keris design there have always been general guidelines to all the various known keris patterns that one is usually expected to adhere to. So we have the question of who decides when it comes to creating a new keris that can be accepted by the particular keris bearing culture which it is aimed at representing? Does it matter if it pleases the owner? But we also have the question of how such a personally designed keris that was created to specifically to owner preference rather than established "pakem" will be received if, down the line, it is introduced into the collecting market. I believe there may well be precedent for such things, keris that have been designed by eclectic people to suit very personal tastes. But from my perspective this does fall outside the perceived norms of the collecting world. Keris like this can then become enigmas to collectors down the line that some may find worthy and others not, especially if they pass into the marketplace without clear provenance. Hopefully if and/or when this keris leaves your custody it is not presented to collectors as a Minagkabau keris because it is not. I would hate to see a future where collectors have become confused about the authenticity of such a keris due to the lack of proper representation or the loss of basic knowledge of what such keris are actually supposed to look like. But it does seem to be a well crafted "art" keris. I would never personally commission such a keris, especially coming from outside the culture. It is not for me, a non-Sumatran, to determine or influence the nature of the specific keris design from any particular port of keris culture. But i do believe we all collect keris for different, sometimes subtle, reasons. My personal keris mission is about the study and preservation of the existing cultures, not forging new paths or foisting new design upon it. That would certainly not be my place.

[Rick]

I'm very sorry; I would have to classify this new piece as an 'Indonesian style dagger'.
For me it just does not fit the required parameters to be called 'Keris'.

We own AKC recognized dogs; Rhodesian Ridgeback hounds; they are judged on a very strict set of standards.
Some people these days are breeding Poodles (an AKC breed) with Golden Retrievers (another AKC recognized breed); they call the end product 'Golden Doodles'; they are not recognized as a AKC breed; therefore they are considered Mutts by the people who set the standards.

So when you toss tradition out the window either with keris or purebred dogs I fear the end products achieve the same result.

[alexish]

Dear David and Rick,

Any opinion on the keris sarung? As you can see in the attached pictures, both the hulu and warangka were almost completely influenced and inspired by the design of old antique pieces, unlike the blade which had more innovation. For your reference, I also enclose pictures of an antique carved Minangkabau keris pendok that inspired my new piece.

[Jean]

Hello Alexish,
IMO the sarong shown in your post # 18 and which inspired your new piece is not at all an antique Minang sarong but a recent bone replica very popular since about 20-30 years and probably not even made in Sumatra. You can find plenty of similar krisses on Ebay or other commercial sites.
Regards

[shayde78]

Originally Posted by Rick

I'm very sorry; I would have to classify this new piece as an 'Indonesian style dagger'.
For me it just does not fit the required parameters to be called 'Keris'.

I find this fascinating. I am heartened whenever I see traditional culture practiced by new generations. The alternative is a loss of heritage. That said, there are strong opinions of what qualifies as a continuation of tradition, and a cheapening of one's culture. I find alexish's newly commissioned piece very nice, a nifty example of smithing, but understand why it may offend some.

So this begs the questions:
1-What parameters MUST be met for a subject to be definitively dubbed "Keris"?
2-What elements exclude an object from qualifying as a Keris?

[David]

Originally Posted by shayde78

I find this fascinating. I am heartened whenever I see traditional culture practiced by new generations. The alternative is a loss of heritage. That said, there are strong opinions of what qualifies as a continuation of tradition, and a cheapening of one's culture. I find alexish's newly commissioned piece very nice, a nifty example of smithing, but understand why it may offend some.

So this begs the questions:
1-What parameters MUST be met for a subject to be definitively dubbed "Keris"?
2-What elements exclude an object from qualifying as a Keris?

I would just like to direct your attention to this old thread. This is certainly not the first time these questions have been discussed. If you find something to question or add after read it Shayde i might recommend that to make your comment there and revive that old thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=defines+keris