Balinese kris from Polish Museum

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Jean, that keris in post 83 is close to text-book Madura, however, all tangguh comes down to opinion, and in my opinion I cannot fit Pauls keris into a Jawa classification. I might be able to with much better photos, but what I believe I can see in Paul's keris at the moment simply rules out Jawa and ticks Madura.

Look at the blumbangan, look at the greneng, look at the pawakan, look at the penitis, the kembang kacang might just barely scrape in as Jawa, but it also fits nicely into Madura.

Look at your Madura and Paul's keris together, in the same orientation.

Consider this:- if we want to give Paul's keris as Jawa, what do we have available as possibilities? It appears to have a boto adeg blumbangan, how many Javanese classifications have boto adeg blumbangan?

Could it be Pajajaran?

Majapahit?

Banten?

Surakarta?

It doesn't fit any of those, does it?

Where do you go from there?

But agreed, the photos do need a lot of improvement before you'd bet your house on it.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Jean, that keris in post 83 is close to text-book Madura, however, all tangguh comes down to opinion, and in my opinion I cannot fit Pauls keris into a Jawa classification. I might be able to with much better photos, but what I believe I can see in Paul's keris at the moment simply rules out Jawa and ticks Madura.

Look at the blumbangan, look at the greneng, look at the pawakan, look at the penitis, the kembang kacang might just barely scrape in as Jawa, but it also fits nicely into Madura.

Look at your Madura and Paul's keris together, in the same orientation.

Consider this:- if we want to give Paul's keris as Jawa, what do we have available as possibilities? It appears to have a boto adeg blumbangan, how many Javanese classifications have boto adeg blumbangan?

Could it be Pajajaran?

Majapahit?

Banten?

Surakarta?

It doesn't fit any of those, does it?

Where do you go from there?

But agreed, the photos do need a lot of improvement before you'd bet your house on it.

Hello Alan,
Thank you and I won't argue anymore as we are deviating from the original subject, but would you say that every old Javanese blade (including the village and trade pieces) should be aligned to a specific tangguh?
Paul, could you please post a clear picture of the sorsoran of the blade?

Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Absolutely not Jean --- from the classic point of view.

But it seems to be obvious to me that the current crop of collectors, the bulk of whom are from outside the society and the social level for whom the tangguh system was relevant, now have decided that a tangguh can be stuck onto every keris ever made.

That's just the way it is at the moment, and I doubt that it will ever go back to the classic form.

After all, it is only an opinion, and opinions in the strictest sense are not really open to debate, but they can be discussed, which makes tangguh a wonderful method of generating conversation and social interaction.

[Bjorn]

The Dutch Rijksmuseum also has similar topengan pieces in its collection. Both are attributed to Madura.

For photo one, the description reads:
J.C. Baud, Governor-General of the Dutch East Indies, was presented with this kris by Mangkoe Adie Ningrat, ruler of Pamekasan, during his inspection tour on Java and Madura in 1834. The exchange of gifts between native rulers and Dutch officials was important in maintaining good diplomatic relations. A kris, as a symbol of power that protected its wearer against evil, was a highly appropriate gift.

For photo 2:
This kris was presented to King William I by the Sultan of Madura, Cakra Adinigrat VIII, in 1835. In an accompanying letter, the sultan expressed a thousand thanks for his appointment as a Commander in the Order of the Dutch Lion. His gift to the king was a kris ‘made at my kraton [= palace]’. Two of the 117 diamonds decorating the scabbard are missing.