Flintlock Musket Advice Required

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Rick and Fernando,
The orange hue is thick paint, not a stain, of a particular virulent hue so as far as I can ascertain definitely modern and chemical and not earth colours. I had thought that some moron had thought the orange would go better with their sense of decor as all of us no doubt have come across perfectly good items sullied usually with gold and silver paint used to 'enhance' their appearance. I will attempt to remove the barrel from the stock over the coming days and maybe there might be more info underneath the barrel. I have to say as it looks like it is an early 20thC piece I've got to get rid of that orange. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman.

Yes, if you can remove the barrel, that might give us additional clues. I'm loosely wondering if the 1904 stamp might possibly be a re-stamp approval of an older surplus barrel ? A question: It appears the breech plug tang screw enters from the top. Correct ?
If it is determined the orange paint was not original to the gun, and is a later 20th Century addition, I don't see any reason to not remove it. Nothing to lose.

Rick

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Colin and Rick,
Have removed the barrel and there some additional marks but I guess there are just initials, no earlier proved marks. Rick the barrel plug tang screw does enter from the top. Colin the stock is all one piece and you might be right about the orange being done for export but I can't find any evidence to determine yes or no and I must admit it's a pretty awful paint job but who knows.
Thanks to you both for your continued interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

[David R]

Hiya Rick, I think you just solved a bit of a mystery for me. I have had this gun lock knocking around for years, and assumed it was Balkan in origin.....

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Evidence of a previous finish possibly! On close inspection there appears to be the possibility of black/brown paint or if not certainly a different finish under the orange This is the ramrod where the orange paint is worn.
Regards,
Norman.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by David R

Hiya Rick, I think you just solved a bit of a mystery for me. I have had this gun lock knocking around for years, and assumed it was Balkan in origin.....

Hi David.

Yes, your lock is identical to mine, and came from the same batch. The story as told by the late Turner Kirkland was these locks were made (in Belgium I think) sometime before 1950 for sale to South Africa. Well, the sale never went through. So in the early to mid 1960's Turner bought the entire lot for little more than scrap metal cost and posted them for sale in his catalog, mainly as a novelty item. I seem to recall the price was around $12.50USD then. I do remember them in the earlier catalogs. Why the maker chose to copy an early Portugese lock design is unknown. Possibly for the simplicity. So any of these locks you see all came from this same lot. Occassionaly, one will show up for sale on Ebay and the like. Notice there are no holes in the lock plate for mounting. And I've never seen a gun with these locks.
So they are not really a replica per say. Just made at a very late date.

Rick

[Philip]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi David.

Yes, your lock is identical to mine, and came from the same batch. The story as told by the late Turner Kirkland was these locks were made (in Belgium I think) sometime before 1950 for sale to South Africa. Well, the sale never went through. So in the early to mid 1960's Turner bought the entire lot for little more than scrap metal cost and posted them for sale in his catalog, mainly as a novelty item. I seem to recall the price was around $12.50USD then. I do remember them in the earlier catalogs. Why the maker chose to copy an early Portugese lock design is unknown. Possibly for the simplicity. So any of these locks you see all came from this same lot. Notice there are no holes in the lock plate for mounting.

Rick

Rick, it may be that this batch that Turner bought in Belgium was assembled and then simply warehoused before they could be fully finished (note the grinder marks), and drilled and tapped for the sideplate screws needed to mount them onto whole guns. If they were made sometime between WW II and the 1950s, the market for such things in the final decades of the African colonies might have simply petered out due to the influx of inexpensive surplus rifles smuggled in from postwar Europe.

Long guns with this type of Portuguese lock were made in Belgium in the 19th cent. and possibly before. There is one of superb quality, maybe made in Liège and probably for export to Portugal or its colonies, dated 1821 that is published in Rainer Daehnhardt / Claude Gaier, Espingardaria Portuguesa, Armurerie Liègeoise (1975), pp 86-87. The specific type of lock is a fairly late one originating towards the end of the 17th cent. in Portugal, a Luso-French mechanical hybrid combining the innards of a French flintlock and the exterior design of the earlier Portuguese fecho de molinhas. The centuries-long presence of Portugal as a colonial master in equatorial and east Africa (Angola, Guinea-Bissau, Moçambique, etc) created a familiarity with and demand for Portuguese armament among the local cultures. (hence the local production of crude copies of 15th-16th cent. Portuguese and Spanish-style broadswords as symbolic regalia in Kongo and other areas down to the last century).

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Philip

Rick, it may be that this batch that Turner bought in Belgium was assembled and then simply warehoused before they could be fully finished (note the grinder marks), and drilled and tapped for the sideplate screws needed to mount them onto whole guns. If they were made sometime between WW II and the 1950s, the market for such things in the final decades of the African colonies might have simply petered out due to the influx of inexpensive surplus rifles smuggled in from postwar Europe.

Long guns with this type of Portuguese lock were made in Belgium in the 19th cent. and possibly before. There is one of superb quality, maybe made in Liège and probably for export to Portugal or its colonies, dated 1821 that is published in Rainer Daehnhardt / Claude Gaier, Espingardaria Portuguesa, Armurerie Liègeoise (1975), pp 86-87. The specific type of lock is a fairly late one originating towards the end of the 17th cent. in Portugal, a Luso-French mechanical hybrid combining the innards of a French flintlock and the exterior design of the earlier Portuguese fecho de molinhas. The centuries-long presence of Portugal as a colonial master in equatorial and east Africa (Angola, Guinea-Bissau, Moçambique, etc) created a familiarity with and demand for Portuguese armament among the local cultures. (hence the local production of crude copies of 15th-16th cent. Portuguese and Spanish-style broadswords as symbolic regalia in Kongo and other areas down to the last century).

Hi Philip.

I'm sure all of your analysis above is correct. The Portuguese dominence in the Region may very well account for the original prototype for this lock. It makes sense. Good point.
Yes, the lack of mounting holes and the unpolished finish seem to indicate that's where the production ended. And just stored away in a warehouse and forgotten. LOL
Notice also, there is not even a half-cock/safety notch cut into the tumbler. Seems like they were trying to cut every corner making these. LOL
Thanks for the additional Regional knowledge.

Rick

[Philip]

Not only is there no half-cock detent in the tumbler, there appears to be no functioning lockplate safety pawl on the outside of the lockplate as is typical on several earlier Portuguese locks -- the molinhas, the horse-neck or pescoço de cavalo, and the half-Portuguese half-French or meio à portuguesa e meio à francesa systems in particular. On the trade-gun flintlock we are discussing there appears an oblong projection from the plate just ahead of the cock -- I haven't examined one of these locks in a long time but as I recall it doesn't swivel so that it can't perform the function of the "Portuguese brake" on the above-mentioned locks, and would therefore be just a stylistic flourish.

When I was in high school I saw a film about tribal life in equatorial Africa (this was in the 1960s, pre-Kalashnikov era), and a local hunter had a Belgian-type halfstock trade gun with a conventional percussion cap lock. Pretty basic gear, the lead balls weren't remotely spherical, and when he loaded the gun and carried it around, he gently lowered the hammer onto the capped nipple and let it be until he was ready to cock and fire. If this was traditional practice in the culture-sphere, maybe that's why a half-cock detent was considered superfluous! (by the way, he missed a coke bottle on a stick at less than 20 paces...)

[kronckew]

Be careful if you remove the paint. red lead paints can look a quite bright orange & can be bad for your health.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Colin and Rick,
Have removed the barrel and there some additional marks but I guess there are just initials, no earlier proved marks. Rick the barrel plug tang screw does enter from the top. Colin the stock is all one piece and you might be right about the orange being done for export but I can't find any evidence to determine yes or no and I must admit it's a pretty awful paint job but who knows.
Thanks to you both for your continued interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Colin

Hmmmm. These additional stamps under the barrel don't seem to help us. But then, my knowledge of markings is very limited. As long as you have the barrel off, could you post a couple of pics of the muzzle end and the octagon section of the barrel ? I'm assuming the barrel is octagon at the breech, fading to round ? How long is the barrel itself ? I know, I'm just full of questions here. LOL
OK. So the breech plug screw on this gun enters from the top, and probably threads into the trigger plate itself. This is a later feature. On the earlier guns the breech plug screw would enter from the bottom securing the front of the trigger guard and threaded into the breech plug tang.
Hard to believe there was a market for smooth bore fowler barrels at that late of date. But the proof mark is there. Hmmm. Maybe Britian was still making these barrels for hobbyist/sporting use (?) Possibly someone had this gun made utilizing old parts and adding a new barrel (then) for sport shooting ? Just speculating. With that photo of the ramrod, it is obvious the orange paint was added later. Possible for some decorative purpose as you mentioned earlier.
I'm starting to think this gun never left the Continent. If it were not for the late proof mark date (and the orange paint) the entire gun looks just like many of the trade guns exported to North America during the first half of the 19th Century.

Rick