Wootz Shamshir

[ariel]

The cleanest wootz was at the bottom part of the ingot, the dirtiest with a lot of slag- at the top. The smith partially cut and bent the ingot to use the clean part for the edge and the sides, with the lower quality part of it forming the inner core of the blade. The long “crack” on the spine is the seam of that bending. It is usually filled with brass or silver wire. It is not a forging flaw, it is a hallmark of a wootz blade.

[Bryce]

G'day Ariel,

Thank you for answering this for me. Where did you learn this?

Cheers,

Bryce

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Ariel,

Thank you for answering this for me. Where did you learn this?

Cheers,

Bryce

Hello Bryce,

I have exactly the same question as you, where did Ariel learned this?

Because there is imho a temperature problem. Wootz is forged at low temperatures of 750-850°C (I forgot the exact value) but fire welding requires a temperature of ~1100°C. At this temperature the pattern would get lost. So I'm quite confused about the fire welding theory. I hope, Ariel can solve this problem.


Roland

[mariusgmioc]

All wootz blades I have appear to have exactly the same material for all their parts. Some are laminated/layered but some others appear to be monosteel.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

All wootz blades I have appear to have exactly the same material for all their parts. Some are laminated/layered but some others appear to be monosteel.

Hi Marius,

wootz blades are never laminated. That is the huge difference between wootz and pattern welded/laminated steel. Wootz got its pattern without any laminations. European researchers realised this difference not before the middle of the 19th ct..

I think the wootz pattern exists because the steel is never fully liquid during the melting process like nowadays. This causes a massive growth of the crystalline carbon structures we admire. The first job of the wootz-smith is to manipulate the ingot in different ways for different patterns (hammering, rolling etc.).

European swords were forged at a temperature of over 1000°C, the steel is almost yellow heated. Wootz is forged at the much lower temperatures I mentioned and is only cherry-red during the forging process, which is much cooler than yellow heat.

The main problem for modern researchers is that antique wootz artists made a huge secret around their techniques including telling lies to visitors.


Best wishes,
Roland

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Roland, and thank you for the explanation!

To my knowledge, the term "laminated" refferring to steel implies the respective object is made of multiple layers of steel, and NOT necessarily of multiple layers of different steels. So basically, if you bend a hot bar of steel over itself and press the two bends together, you "laminate" the blade.

I believe there is some misconception among us that "laminated" steel has to be composed of layers of different steels.

And I certainly have seen, and maybe even have one, swords made of at least two layers of wootz steel.

But maybe I am wrong about that...

Regarding to wootz making technique... yes, it is still a secret despite the works of Anosov, Verhoeven and Pendray but there are some smiths today that consistently produce wootz that comes very close to the antique one (have a look at the link below)

http://gotscha.nl/uk-Bulat-Symposium-2011.htm

[ariel]

There would be no difference between a bar of monosteel bent over on itself multiple times and just an identical bar of the same monosteel used as is. As a matter of fact, the laminated one might be worse: the layers might not forge together to perfection without leaving defective spaces between them.

All mechanical damascus blades require steels of different carbon content: old European bloomery steel , Japanese Tamahagane, modern blades. Otherwise, there will never be a differential oxidation (damascus pattern) after etching.

Recommend the book by Manfred Sachse” On Damascus steel”.

The “pioneering work” of Anosov is, IMHO, overrated: Russian captain Masalsky witnessed Persian forges and published the description of their methods. Moreover, by that time Russians were already in Central Asian Khanates and unquestionably served as a source of information. Anosov indeed made wootz ( bulat) and learned the simplest rules of forging it ( low temperature), but the fine points of producing beautiful patterns by careful hammering were beyond him. He claimed to produce Kara Taban and Kara Khorasan blades, but in actuality all surviving blades from his workshop are of rather simplest Shams.

Yes, there are some blades with different wootz patterns. This was mainly to show the proficiency of the bladesmith. But a similar thing was done with malicious purposes: Russian officer Maksimov wrote a paper some 150 years ago in which he described bulat sabers made by “Asiatic smiths” out of broken blades forged together to sell them to Russian officers at high prices. Understandably, he recommended Zlatoust blades:-)


Yes, there are a few contemporary masters capable of forging “OK” bulat short blades. But there is perhaps only a single one able to make a long blade comparable to the best Persian or Indian ones: Georgian master Zaqro Nonikashvili. Google him.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

And I certainly have seen, and maybe even have one, swords made of at least two layers of wootz steel.

But maybe I am wrong about that...

Hello Marius,

you may be right. Lord Egerton describes a technique in his book (Indian and Oriental Arms) were two bars of steel are connected with fire welding, to improve the steel characteristics. But the structure of the technical parts of the book is a little confusing. So it is unclear whether he means wootz or laminated steel. He writes like a man, who has seen the process from a distance without explanations. So there are some corrections in the footnotes of later editions.

Laminated steel means steel which is folded to homogenize and refine the inner structure and bring the carbon content to the perfect level (~0,85%).

For example if you have antique pattern welded steel, both or all types steel are laminated before.

The failures could result from the treatment of the ingot before forging out the blade, during forging out the blade or maybe they had forgotten techniques, in which they were able to make fire welding with wootz at lower temperatures.

If you are realy interested in this topic, I have some links to a very good modern smith from Finland. He is able to make wootz like in the 18th ct., wonderful watered steel, but not as perfectly even as in old days.


Roland

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

The cleanest wootz was at the bottom part of the ingot, the dirtiest with a lot of slag- at the top. The smith partially cut and bent the ingot to use the clean part for the edge and the sides, with the lower quality part of it forming the inner core of the blade. The long “crack” on the spine is the seam of that bending. It is usually filled with brass or silver wire. It is not a forging flaw, it is a hallmark of a wootz blade.

Thank you for this excellent explanation Ariel!
For metallurgy Neanderthals like me its great to have this kind of insight given that I can really grasp.