Khyber, pesh, choora, or kard?

[shayde78]

Originally Posted by ariel

This one is exceptionally good : Indian crystalline wootz. Right away it puts in doubt the assertion that Chooras came into being only in the 20th century.

Thanks everyone! This is one of the times when the purchase far exceeded expectations!

Ariel, what features date this to pre-20th century?

Also, I thought chooras had a more beaked pommel, no?
Kabur, why a karud vs. kard? I have seen some debates on these two terms, but would like to hear why this example qualifies as karud.

[ariel]

Wootz ceased to be produced in the second half of the 19th century. Certainly, there might have been occasional cases, but by and large it vanished from the horizon.

There is still a possibility of remounting older blade, but am I wrong thinking
that the handle is rhino?

There was a “bombshell discovery” that any brass part on an Afghani bladed weapon pinpoints it to the 20th century. The proponent was politely referred to Moser and Egerton’s collections that were assembled in the 19th and contained daggers with elements clearly labeled by the original owners as brass. Another beautiful hypothesis slaughtered by an ugly fact. He is still maintaining his position, God bless him....

Karud is just a misheard pronounciation of Persian and/or Dari Kard, and means just “Knife”, just as Chhurra in Hindi, P’chak in Uzbeki, although classical Persian Kard never had a T-spine.
Both chhurra and “Karud” are just Central Asian variants of Persian Pesh Kabz with a straight blade. They differ only in the form of handles. Likely, ethnic/tribal hallmarks.

The word “Karud” is still preferred by some collectors for stenographic purposes. That’s OK with me. Some words acquire lives of their own. We are still “Xeroxing” documents using Canon, Konika, Dell, HP etc. copiers:-)

Don’t let it bother you.

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Shayde,
In my oppinion this is a rather typical example of North Indian, possibly Afghan, straight-bladed Pesh-kabz or Karud (as Karud is a "collector's term" for straight-bladed Pesh-kabz, as Ariel accurately mentioned in his posting).
The blade could benefit from some etching and then, from the aspect of the wootz, a more accurate assesment can be made.
Anyhow, it is a very good aquisition.
Regards,
Marius

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Karud is just a misheard pronounciation of Persian and/or Dari Kard, and means just “Knife”,

This is Ariels personal opinion....not a proven fact..and even if true "karud" has been in use to describe these types of daggers for quite some time, just like the now frequently used names of many Indo-Persian weapons and armor.

[ariel]

Lighten up, Eric:-)))

[Kubur]

Finally!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Lighten up, Eric:-)))

I will when you stop portraying your personal opinions as proven facts. What some villager a hundred plus years ago may or may not have called a particular weapon or armor has nothing to do with what we now call them.

Knowing how and when these current names came into use is historically important but lets not go backwards in time when describing them now in our time.

[ariel]

Well, if you want to call analysis of actual written sources and phonetic pronounciations of the word by native speakers "personal opinion", I would gently disagree, but will not, in any way, shape or form, try to prevent you from using the term you hold so dear to you.

The only thing I would like to add, is that my original post on the origin of "karud" was read and approved by Robert Elgood.

From now on, please take your fight to him.

Although I am afraid you are in different weight categories.

All the best.

And, by the way, do you still call the thingie some villager in Iran called "shamshir" three or five hundreds years ago, - "scimitar"? After all, we still see this word on many Internet auctions. I hope you are consistent in your beliefs.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ariel

Although I am afraid you are in different weight categories.

It's a joke.
It's funny that the moderator didn't block this comment.
Eric, I think you should consult the forum but to participate.
It's a waste of time.
It's probably what I'll do when i read this kind of comment.
The forum is full of "I know everything"...
The same who praise Wikipedia search done by some members...
funny...
I hope that my comment will be published as it's a fact and not disgraceful like previous comment.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by shayde78

Also, I thought chooras had a more beaked pommel, no?
Kabur, why a karud vs. kard? I have seen some debates on these two terms, but would like to hear why this example qualifies as karud.

Shayde, here are a few examples for you...which dagger below do you think is the most similar to yours???? There are distinct differences between khyber, karud, pesh and kard. While a few examples do blurr the lines a bit, for the most part they are easily distinguished from each other. While a choora is a karud, it has certain traits that allow it to be identified as a specific type of karud...so all choora are karuds but not all karuds are choora.

In the images below you will see from top down a khyber knife, karud, choora, and pesh kabz. The next image shows three kard daggers, notice the lack of T spine?

All of these different types of daggers are distinctly different and usually easily identifiable from each other.

[estcrh]

Here is a comparison of the karud dagger that Shayde posted and a true choora....how could any knowledge oriented collector confuse the two???? Does anyone here think that Shayde has posted anything other then a karud dagger, if so what is your reasoning??

[estcrh]

A few more examples of Afghan karud daggers.