Mid 18th Century Portuguese Rapier ?

[Cerjak]

other examplars

[fernando]

Both hilts somehow with a similar attitude, don't you agree ?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Both hilts somehow with a similar attitude, don't you agree ?

It seems these hilts are similar in character, but not too sure about their disposition.
The wonderful reference by A.V.B. Norman, "The Rapier and Small-Sword 1460-1820" is a valuable source for overview in examining hilts and their components. It very well notes the circumstances which might compromise accurate dating in degree, but bringing those to attention actually gives the researcher guidelines for consideration.

The fact that certain forms of pommel did remain popular for long periods is noted, as with the case in the hilt of the rapier in original post, which would technically be closest to pommel type 88, with date range c. 1670-1780.
While this designation does not particularly match this pommel exactly, it does note the time range likely, and my inclination would be in the 18th c.
just as you have suggested Jean-Luc.

What seems the catch is nuances like the faceting, which is of course not noted as a separate variation in Mr. Normans "reference". The overall form described as 'egg shaped' is shown smooth, and we might wonder in the faceted character might be more toward more definitive assessment.

[fernando]

Jim, can you define disposition as opposed, in the context, to attitude ?
I have mirrored one of the examples and have put both in confront. I believe that, if these two sail guards appeared in a book wuth the description that they have been made in the same workshop, readers wouldn't doubt it.
In reiterating my difficulty to check 'rudimentary' pommels with those 'prototypes' classified by Norman, i see no trace of familiarity between Jan-Luc's & my three examples (per post #9 ) and Norman's type 88. And i confess that, discerning that one is a previous or later variant of the other, is something beyond my reach. In any case, i am afraid it takes more than a guess to state with certainty and firmness the age of Jean-Luc's sword judging by its pommel; starting by the timespan of this (so to say) type appearing to encompass a vast universe of hilt/guard variants.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, can you define disposition as opposed, in the context, to attitude ?
I have mirrored one of the examples and have put both in confront. I believe that, if these two sail guards appeared in a book wuth the description that they have been made in the same workshop, readers wouldn't doubt it.
In reiterating my difficulty to check 'rudimentary' pommels with those 'prototypes' classified by Norman, i see no trace of familiarity between Jan-Luc's & my three examples (per post #9 ) and Norman's type 88. And i confess that, discerning that one is a previous or later variant of the other, is something beyond my reach. In any case, i am afraid it takes more than a guess to state with certainty and firmness the age of Jean-Luc's sword judging by its pommel; starting by the timespan of this (so to say) type appearing to encompass a vast universe of hilt/guard variants.

.

A little jest, akin to blade with a bad temper. Attitude- disposition.
With observations on swords and their elements, sometimes a guess is all that can be reached, and these become more educated with references such as Nick Norman has given us. We never stop learning, and the universe becomes more finite in degree as we continue exploring.
Good points, and taken as noted.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

Both hilts somehow with a similar attitude, don't you agree ?

Yes Fernando ,this two Swords are so similar and there is no risk to say that they are coming from the same place.
Best

Jean-Luc