Shotley Bridge swordmakers

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th November 2017, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Every book, article or account I have read to date has all remarked on the same issue: that cessation of warfare over the years had impacted greatly on the business at SB; which implies that they were making most of their money from the supply of battlefield weapons. I have only just seen the relevance of this: duh!!!; it’s remarkable how much I still need to explore.

Incidentally, I’ve also re-discovered this bit of info:
It was during the renovation of Cutlers Hall, when the stencil of what appears to be a "running fox" was found on the wooden ceiling of one room. see image

Did anyone notice the dating of the appearance of a Robert Oley in Birmingham: from 1724 – 1832; the dates must be mixed up because that would make him working for 108 years, unless it was including a son (or a nephew) of the same name.

Finally, the story of an Oley winning a crown for the best sword in England must have a germ of truth about it; is anyone aware of the competition and who, what and where it was?

[IMG]

PLEASE See post 13 It refers to the competition and it was when after winning the crown they changed the name of the Sword Inn to the Crown and Crossed Swords. I recall a spurious note about the sword maker turning up...in Birmingham..it wasnt our man...l think Jim refers to this ..but l cant find it...The ceiling stencil is very interesting..not that it is running or flying...Neither is it a bushey tail variant. Could this simply be a dog? Unrelated by pure accident ??

urbanspaceman · 19th November 2017, 11:08 AM

[QUOTE=The ceiling stencil is very interesting..not that it is running or flying...Neither is it a bushey tail variant. Could this simply be a dog? Unrelated by pure accident ??[/QUOTE]

I agree Ibrahiim, writers have given much pertinence to this image on the ceiling, but I also feel it is not representative of the fox or the wolf. It is more likely a builder's mark.

Has anyone ever explained how a mark of quality bestowed by an Archduke in 1349 to a Passau guild ended up more commonly representing Solingen who were both competition and also on the opposite side of the country. It seems to me that the Shotley Bridge story has nearly as much historical beginnings in Germany as it does in England.

The business of the competition: I wondered if this was a known historical event that endured into more recent times, rather than the actual occasion when Oley won the crown.

urbanspaceman · 19th November 2017, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Has anyone ever explained how a mark of quality bestowed by an Archduke in 1349 to a Passau guild ended up more commonly representing Solingen who were both competition and also on the opposite side of the country. It seems to me that the Shotley Bridge story has nearly as much historical beginnings in Germany as it does in England.

Apropos of the above, I came across this in one of the SB books:

The earliest swordmaking centres of Europe were at Milan,
Brescia, Toledo, Strasburg, Passau and Solingen. The distribution point
was Cologne. The merchants congregated there to take their percentage
and send the blades on in chests or bundles to be furbished in other
towns and countries. If these 'Cologne' swords (as they were called), bore the mark
of the 'Flying Fox' which guaranteed Solingen make, they were enhanced
in value. The mark was not associated with any particular bladesmith
(who always inscribed his own mark on the blade or tang- which is
hidden in the hilt), but was granted to the Armourer's Guild at Passau
by Archduke Albert in 1349 and was subsequently stamped on all
Solingen blades as a mark of excellence. In those days the marking
and stamping on the blades was witnessed in the market place.

It would seem that the blades would already bear the Passau Wolf and the public stamping of bladesmith identity was done in public. Even so, if you are buying a chest of blades (how many blades in a chest?) you would be waiting around some time while each one was stamped.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 20th November 2017, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Apropos of the above, I came across this in one of the SB books:

The earliest swordmaking centres of Europe were at Milan,
Brescia, Toledo, Strasburg, Passau and Solingen. The distribution point
was Cologne. The merchants congregated there to take their percentage
and send the blades on in chests or bundles to be furbished in other
towns and countries. If these 'Cologne' swords (as they were called), bore the mark
of the 'Flying Fox' which guaranteed Solingen make, they were enhanced
in value. The mark was not associated with any particular bladesmith
(who always inscribed his own mark on the blade or tang- which is
hidden in the hilt), but was granted to the Armourer's Guild at Passau
by Archduke Albert in 1349 and was subsequently stamped on all
Solingen blades as a mark of excellence. In those days the marking
and stamping on the blades was witnessed in the market place.

It would seem that the blades would already bear the Passau Wolf and the public stamping of bladesmith identity was done in public. Even so, if you are buying a chest of blades (how many blades in a chest?) you would be waiting around some time while each one was stamped.

Salaams Keith~ Therein lies a tale

~ The Shotley wording uses Flying Fox in describing the Solingen animal... It wasn't the bushy tail version... it was the stick-like wolf. The Wolf of Passau. Malleted and chiseled into the blade.

The Bushey tail flying Fox was Samuel Harveys. Birmingham. Initials SH in the body of the fox but not always.

Jim McDougall · 20th November 2017, 07:49 AM

Actually, as always, a great deal of 'lore' becomes entwined in material compiled on many topics, and one of these greatly effected is the origins and history of the 'running wolf'.
It seems that the generally held idea of Archduke Albert granting the 'wolf' symbol to sword guilds in Passau in 1349 was suggested in Demmin (1877)but it is unclear where he found that data. When Rudolf Cronau wrote his "Geschicte der Solinger Klingenindustrie" (1885) he indicated he had never found proof of such award or association to a guild in this manner.

Passau did however use the rampant wolf as a town arms from c.1460, with its beginnings as such around 1402. It does seem that it was a center for the assembly of mercenary armies, and at some time the incising of a rudimentary rendering of the wolf into blades began being used. This was a kind of imbuement of power and protection for the warriors to use these weapons.
In these times and later, Solingen was producing blades, but as noted, these were sent to nearby Cologne to be mounted and sold as complete swords commonly known as 'Cologne Swords'.

It seems at some point the use of the 'running wolf' of Passau entered the repertoire of Solingen's blade makers. In regard to this, Wagner (Prague, 1967) notes that the 'Passau wolf' mark was used by Wundes (probably Johann Wundes the elder, 1560-1610) for his blade consignments for Passau merchants supplying the mercenary forces of Archduke Leopold V.

It seems the only makers I have found listed to Passau, are the Stantlers, running from early 15th c. through 16th, but they are equally noted to Munich. Among the various marks they used, many spurious of makers of Toledo etc. are noted, but not the running wolf.

The running wolf does however seem to be paired with various magical numbers or sometimes other 'general' marks such as cross and orb.
I am beginning to wonder just how many blades or weapons were indeed produced at Passau, or whether they were simply imported from Solingen or other centers and marked with the magical imbuement of the wolf, and or others.

Such magical and talismanic imbuements were among other forms of amulets also known as 'Passau art' suggesting association with Passau provided protection in battle. Therefore I am thinking that the term 'running wolf of Passau' is simply a descriptive term for the superstitions and notions applied to these crudely incised markings. The fact that they are so dissimilar and often nearly indiscernible is due to the fact they were actually applied in an almost token manner. It was the presence of the mark itself, not its accuracy or character, that mattered.

Later, as the magical tone subsided, it became regarded as a kind of quality mark, whose connotation was carried forward in that manner, in Solingen; later Hounslow.
The British counterpart of the wolf, the fox, may well owe its derivation to the Shakespeare references using the fox term with presumed suggestion of the so called "Passau wolf'. In Birmingham, makers Harvey and Dawes seeking to capitalize on the quality connotation used this in mid 18th c.

We know that the fox with SH was of course probably to Samuel Harvey, but while Dawes was believed to have used the fox as well, we do not know of his name or initials with the fox. Perhaps then those without initials are his.
We know also that Harvey used his name or initials without the fox, and it appears to have ceased being used .

With Shotley Bridge, in the 17th c. according to Aylward (1945, p.33), "...it appears they were importing forgings from Solingen, which were ground, tempered and finished at Shotley".
It seems that the running wolf may have still been used by these descendants from Hounslow and their Solingen ancestors as a mark of that quality and heritage, contrary to the notion that they were spurning the codes, oaths or expatriation from it.

urbanspaceman · 20th November 2017, 01:08 PM

Hello Jim. That is precisely what I was looking for; I was wondering where I might find some early German sword history; thank-you.
So we can ignore the Archduke and the Passau guilds… good! Talismanic and mystical origins are so much more desirable.

To SB:
Between Oley and Mohll, the blade business at SB prospered (especially, it would seem, once greedy outside merchants were taken out of the picture) at least until the early 1800s, despite common apocrypha declaring otherwise. Oley had taken over Mohll's business:
"Newcastle Courant (16th May, 1724) - "To be sold, a sword grinding mill with about eight acres of ground, a very good head of water situated on the Derwentwater in the County of Durham. Also a very good house etc., all now within possession of William Mohll at Shotley Bridge..."

The Oleys were doing very well, so much so that a leading, local engraving company, 'Beilby', sent Thomas Bewick (now a local engraving hero) to work directly under the Oleys. This from Richardson:
Thomas Bewick in his memoirs tells us that in 1767, one of the first jobs he was put-to was "etching sword blades for William and Nicholas Oley, sword manufacturers of Shatley Bridge" (sic).

Also this: a unique glass tumbler, now in the boardroom of Wilkinson Sword Ltd. London, was made by the Beilbys and it can be seen by the inscriptions on the glass that it was presented to William and Ann Oley in the year 1767. On one side of the glass is "Success to the Swordmakers" and on the other side there are the initials of William and Ann Oley with the date 1767 - in the same fashion as upon the wall of Cutler's Hall, built in the same year: 100 years after the arrival in SB.

Moving forward we have this – again from Richardson:
William died on 13th August 1810, three days after making his will. He left his sole possessions to his wife and in the event of her death he detailed all that would be left to his three sons - William, Nicholas and Christopher and to his daughter Mary Brown. Her share - in the case of her death - was to pass to her son, William Oley Brown. In the terms of the day and especially within the confines of a village, William Oley left a fortune. Besides houses - which were copyhold premises with workshops (three) together with land bounding up to the mill races, and a butcher's shop as well as other houses (tenanted) bordering on the Plantation he left amounts of money to each. I found the item, 'all my tools except the old bellows, which is to be shared equally' interesting and I also found most interesting, 'as well as the two old shops now in ruin' (Were these the derelict first sword mills?). Mention too is made of a 'Grinding mill and warehouse against the bridge with the ground above'.

Richardson doubts, however, whether the Oleys ever owned the pub, Crown and Crossed Swords, despite its name being changed to celebrate the family's alleged victory in the competition; why he should doubt this I do not know but hopefully I will find out when I gain access to the SB village archives this week. Its name-change does give weight to the story of the competition though.

Christopher Oley built, in 1814, a small chapel in his garden; subsequently enlarged in 1855 – probably by Joseph Oley – to "The Chapel on the Hill".

So, despite numerous chroniclers insisting that everything was in unstoppable decline throughout the first quarter of the 1700s, it would appear that certainly did not apply to the Oleys. However, prosperity was slow in coming, and many Oleys moved out of the area to find alternative employment; in particular one of the Richards (of which there were a few) who moved to Birmingham to begin work in 1724; taking, as I've already mentioned, much knowledge and expertise and, although Ibrahiim and I disagree upon this, the image of the family fox, rapidly purloined by the Harveys it seems. I need to find with whom Richard Oley was working.

urbanspaceman · 20th November 2017, 01:13 PM

forgot to attach this photo[IMG]

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 20th November 2017, 01:48 PM

That is a great bit of research Keith... especially on the glass vessel. I think you are close to cracking the enigma on the ceiling artwork in the Cutlers Hall.. I reckon it was borrowed/ taken by Samuel Harvey shortly after it was placed on the ceiling thus events rolled up fast and furious...and the Shotley sword smiths never got a chance to utilize that mark... The chapel on the hill at the top of Kiln Street I think...that was closed.. The Hotel was two drinking houses and the two were amalgamated... One was The Commercial and the other The Crown and Crossed Swords. I believe that was a coaching House and it was called the Sword Inn ...changed as we were saying when the crown was won for top sword.

19th November 2017, 11:08 AM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	various [QUOTE=The ceiling stencil is very interesting..not that it is running or flying...Neither is it a bushey tail variant. Could this simply be a dog? Unrelated by pure accident ??[/QUOTE] I agree Ibrahiim, writers have given much pertinence to this image on the ceiling, but I also feel it is not representative of the fox or the wolf. It is more likely a builder's mark. Has anyone ever explained how a mark of quality bestowed by an Archduke in 1349 to a Passau guild ended up more commonly representing Solingen who were both competition and also on the opposite side of the country. It seems to me that the Shotley Bridge story has nearly as much historical beginnings in Germany as it does in England. The business of the competition: I wondered if this was a known historical event that endured into more recent times, rather than the actual occasion when Oley won the crown.

20th November 2017, 07:49 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Actually, as always, a great deal of 'lore' becomes entwined in material compiled on many topics, and one of these greatly effected is the origins and history of the 'running wolf'. It seems that the generally held idea of Archduke Albert granting the 'wolf' symbol to sword guilds in Passau in 1349 was suggested in Demmin (1877)but it is unclear where he found that data. When Rudolf Cronau wrote his "Geschicte der Solinger Klingenindustrie" (1885) he indicated he had never found proof of such award or association to a guild in this manner. Passau did however use the rampant wolf as a town arms from c.1460, with its beginnings as such around 1402. It does seem that it was a center for the assembly of mercenary armies, and at some time the incising of a rudimentary rendering of the wolf into blades began being used. This was a kind of imbuement of power and protection for the warriors to use these weapons. In these times and later, Solingen was producing blades, but as noted, these were sent to nearby Cologne to be mounted and sold as complete swords commonly known as 'Cologne Swords'. It seems at some point the use of the 'running wolf' of Passau entered the repertoire of Solingen's blade makers. In regard to this, Wagner (Prague, 1967) notes that the 'Passau wolf' mark was used by Wundes (probably Johann Wundes the elder, 1560-1610) for his blade consignments for Passau merchants supplying the mercenary forces of Archduke Leopold V. It seems the only makers I have found listed to Passau, are the Stantlers, running from early 15th c. through 16th, but they are equally noted to Munich. Among the various marks they used, many spurious of makers of Toledo etc. are noted, but not the running wolf. The running wolf does however seem to be paired with various magical numbers or sometimes other 'general' marks such as cross and orb. I am beginning to wonder just how many blades or weapons were indeed produced at Passau, or whether they were simply imported from Solingen or other centers and marked with the magical imbuement of the wolf, and or others. Such magical and talismanic imbuements were among other forms of amulets also known as 'Passau art' suggesting association with Passau provided protection in battle. Therefore I am thinking that the term 'running wolf of Passau' is simply a descriptive term for the superstitions and notions applied to these crudely incised markings. The fact that they are so dissimilar and often nearly indiscernible is due to the fact they were actually applied in an almost token manner. It was the presence of the mark itself, not its accuracy or character, that mattered. Later, as the magical tone subsided, it became regarded as a kind of quality mark, whose connotation was carried forward in that manner, in Solingen; later Hounslow. The British counterpart of the wolf, the fox, may well owe its derivation to the Shakespeare references using the fox term with presumed suggestion of the so called "Passau wolf'. In Birmingham, makers Harvey and Dawes seeking to capitalize on the quality connotation used this in mid 18th c. We know that the fox with SH was of course probably to Samuel Harvey, but while Dawes was believed to have used the fox as well, we do not know of his name or initials with the fox. Perhaps then those without initials are his. We know also that Harvey used his name or initials without the fox, and it appears to have ceased being used . With Shotley Bridge, in the 17th c. according to Aylward (1945, p.33), "...it appears they were importing forgings from Solingen, which were ground, tempered and finished at Shotley". It seems that the running wolf may have still been used by these descendants from Hounslow and their Solingen ancestors as a mark of that quality and heritage, contrary to the notion that they were spurning the codes, oaths or expatriation from it. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 20th November 2017 at 08:07 AM.

20th November 2017, 01:08 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	various Hello Jim. That is precisely what I was looking for; I was wondering where I might find some early German sword history; thank-you. So we can ignore the Archduke and the Passau guilds… good! Talismanic and mystical origins are so much more desirable. To SB: Between Oley and Mohll, the blade business at SB prospered (especially, it would seem, once greedy outside merchants were taken out of the picture) at least until the early 1800s, despite common apocrypha declaring otherwise. Oley had taken over Mohll's business: "Newcastle Courant (16th May, 1724) - "To be sold, a sword grinding mill with about eight acres of ground, a very good head of water situated on the Derwentwater in the County of Durham. Also a very good house etc., all now within possession of William Mohll at Shotley Bridge..." The Oleys were doing very well, so much so that a leading, local engraving company, 'Beilby', sent Thomas Bewick (now a local engraving hero) to work directly under the Oleys. This from Richardson: Thomas Bewick in his memoirs tells us that in 1767, one of the first jobs he was put-to was "etching sword blades for William and Nicholas Oley, sword manufacturers of Shatley Bridge" (sic). Also this: a unique glass tumbler, now in the boardroom of Wilkinson Sword Ltd. London, was made by the Beilbys and it can be seen by the inscriptions on the glass that it was presented to William and Ann Oley in the year 1767. On one side of the glass is "Success to the Swordmakers" and on the other side there are the initials of William and Ann Oley with the date 1767 - in the same fashion as upon the wall of Cutler's Hall, built in the same year: 100 years after the arrival in SB. Moving forward we have this – again from Richardson: William died on 13th August 1810, three days after making his will. He left his sole possessions to his wife and in the event of her death he detailed all that would be left to his three sons - William, Nicholas and Christopher and to his daughter Mary Brown. Her share - in the case of her death - was to pass to her son, William Oley Brown. In the terms of the day and especially within the confines of a village, William Oley left a fortune. Besides houses - which were copyhold premises with workshops (three) together with land bounding up to the mill races, and a butcher's shop as well as other houses (tenanted) bordering on the Plantation he left amounts of money to each. I found the item, 'all my tools except the old bellows, which is to be shared equally' interesting and I also found most interesting, 'as well as the two old shops now in ruin' (Were these the derelict first sword mills?). Mention too is made of a 'Grinding mill and warehouse against the bridge with the ground above'. Richardson doubts, however, whether the Oleys ever owned the pub, Crown and Crossed Swords, despite its name being changed to celebrate the family's alleged victory in the competition; why he should doubt this I do not know but hopefully I will find out when I gain access to the SB village archives this week. Its name-change does give weight to the story of the competition though. Christopher Oley built, in 1814, a small chapel in his garden; subsequently enlarged in 1855 – probably by Joseph Oley – to "The Chapel on the Hill". So, despite numerous chroniclers insisting that everything was in unstoppable decline throughout the first quarter of the 1700s, it would appear that certainly did not apply to the Oleys. However, prosperity was slow in coming, and many Oleys moved out of the area to find alternative employment; in particular one of the Richards (of which there were a few) who moved to Birmingham to begin work in 1724; taking, as I've already mentioned, much knowledge and expertise and, although Ibrahiim and I disagree upon this, the image of the family fox, rapidly purloined by the Harveys it seems. I need to find with whom Richard Oley was working. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 20th November 2017 at 01:19 PM.

20th November 2017, 01:13 PM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	add photo forgot to attach this photo[IMG] Attached Images Last edited by urbanspaceman; 20th November 2017 at 01:19 PM. Reason: add photo

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20th November 2017, 01:48 PM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	That is a great bit of research Keith... especially on the glass vessel. I think you are close to cracking the enigma on the ceiling artwork in the Cutlers Hall.. I reckon it was borrowed/ taken by Samuel Harvey shortly after it was placed on the ceiling thus events rolled up fast and furious...and the Shotley sword smiths never got a chance to utilize that mark... The chapel on the hill at the top of Kiln Street I think...that was closed.. The Hotel was two drinking houses and the two were amalgamated... One was The Commercial and the other The Crown and Crossed Swords. I believe that was a coaching House and it was called the Sword Inn ...changed as we were saying when the crown was won for top sword.