2 Victorian Lances

[Victrix]

Yes thank you Jim, the account does seem to support your notion. Callous but brave seems a good description of the lancers. Sticking down the poor unarmed General Ponsonby does not seem like good sport, although charging the numerically superior dragoons was undeniably brave.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Being a Lancer was fraught with danger and at the second battle of El Teb a particular danger was outlined here~

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_...tles_of_El_Teb

Quote" After a brief artillery duel, the Mahdist guns were silenced, and the British advanced. The Mahdists hid in trenches to avoid incoming British rifle and artillery rounds, then rushed out in small groups of twenty to thirty warriors instead of the massive attack that was expected. Another tactic was to pretend to lie dead on the battlefield as British cavalry charged through, then, as the cavalry returned at a slower pace back through the ranks of the 'dead', the Mahdists would rise up and slit the hamstrings of the horses then proceed to kill the riders. At the top of the hill, a village had been fortified by the Mahdists, and here they resisted the most stubbornly. The British infantry had to clear the trenches with bayonets after which the fighting died down."Unquote.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...Actually I mentioned the movie "Last of the Bengal Lancers" as it was a theme obviously referring to the use of the lance in British cavalry in India, which seemed to have some bearing on the discussion at hand... Wayne mentioned the movie "Gunga Din" not only because of the period objective, but because there were scenes in the movie that showed lances in use in the same theme...

I don't recall such movie being exhibited over here, but i remember well one called "The Lives of a Bengal Lancer" here ran as "Lanceiros da India", with Gary Cooper (1935). I fail to remember if i managed to see it, potentialy by not being able to afford it or for being under age. So i ignore whether the name lancer was just their 'title' or if in fact they used lances on the field .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I don't recall any discussion of 'underwear' but as you have shown interest, Sam Jaffee was wearing a loincloth (as Gunga Din) in the movie...

What an entry Jim; one you would label as 'absolutely superb' . I take a note on such well documented Gunga's outer wear. I know that you mentioned it to be of my interest, but i believe you knew my reach was instead a screamingly distinct one; like hoping that this thread, resurrected from 2012, would not now conduct its colateral fait divers to something like 'The art of killing with a lance" .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The PC comment was I think simply to note the differences in the movie making etc. of today vs. the often licentious portrayals in movies of those times...

I knew what Wayne mean, as one. I was trying to mark a thinking out score in that, such acronym out there has several meanings, personal computer for one. But all in all my reach was to distract us from derailing from the lance subject per se to a (more) gory periphery. Any battle weapon and its user are intendedly meant to damage the enemy; but i take it that we are not here to compete on whether one is more critisizable or damnable than the other

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I am always surprised at the awareness of all the people I communicate with in many countries who are sometimes more aware of such popularly used acronyms and buzz words than many people here in the U.S. ...

Is that a true inferrement ?. To make it right about such assumption, one would have to make a comparison between peoples of similar cultural levels and not (like often) comprehending an illiterate from one side with a well informed from the other, a rather common comparison driving to fake conclusion. Certainly many of us are not aware that the "politically correct" term was a movement that gained populariry in America by the nineties. Notably these depictions were perhaps expanded in the times of Gunga Din (for one) to reafirm prejudice, but eventually nowadays, we keep seeing in the movies, scenes of similar impact but, on the contrary, as a manner to condemn them.
But i couldn't go without quoting a member who prefered to do it by PM, on grounds that he wouldn't wish to stir further the off topic pot, in that a good example of PC is "Johnny Depp playing tonto in the lone ranger, no matter how good he is in the role" .

Apparently there is not much (easily affordable) info on the web about Portuguese lances. In any case a rather resumed story, as the origin of lancers forces is more than well identified.
Avoiding to risk repeating how much has being said about this subject, i will here just upload the pennants timely used by Portuguese forces, minding that our Lancers units became the current Military Police.
Noteworthy that, the purpose of pennants in the midle ages was aledgedly that of both identifying the heraldic sign of their knights and impressing the adversary with their 'flaming' waves. This could be true or not, but surely less gory than its purpose being to soak them with the enemy's blood, a not so romantic approach .

1 - 1833-1890
2 - 1890-1891
3 - 1891- actuality
4 - Military (army) Police since 1980.
5 - A lancer of the 'old' British 17th regiment, the emblem and motto adopted by the Portuguese 2nd. Lancers.

.

[kronckew]

i note the skull & crossed bones of no. 4 were used long before pirates (and johnny depp ) as a sign of death, and is frequently found on grave stones and markers in catacombs. i will assume there is nothing piratical about your police force's use of the decoration since 1980. it is used by an assortment of modern military units to signify ferocity.

i note from wiki' skull and crossbones entry that:

The 2nd Lancers Regiment of the Portuguese Army also use the skull and crossbones as symbol and "Death or Glory" as motto, as the regiment was raised by a former colonel of the British 17th Lancers.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Charge of the 16th Lancers at the Battle of Aliwal by Mark Churms.

The 16th Lancers were part of General Sir Harry Smith's army consisitng of the British and Bengali army of 12,000 men and 30 guns against the Sikh army of 30,000 men and 67 guns of Ranjodh Singh during the First Sikh War which was fought on the 28th January 1848 in the Punjab in the North West of India. This painting depicts the 16th Lancers which were part of Brigadier Macdowell's brigade consisitng of the 16th Queen's Lancers, 3rd Bengal Light Cavalry and 4th Bengal Irregular Cavalry. The 16th Lancers charged several times during the action, breaking a number of Sikh infantry squares and overrunning a battery of Sikh artillery. The Lancers are shown wearing over their chapkas the white cotton cover which had been adopted for service in the tropics.

[Jim McDougall]

Good response Fernando!!
My bad on that movie title, "Last of the Bengal Lancers" was actually the book title of my late friend, Brig. Francis Ingall, who wrote that book as his biography about his service in these units in the Khyber Agency in the 30s.

The Gary Cooper movies was indeed "Lives of a Bengal Lancer" which was if I recall another autobiography by a British officer in the same period and regions.

On the underwear, of course I knew what you meant using analogy and was just responding in that same vein. I also realize that the discussion had taken an unfortunate but often unavoidable course in recognizing certain aspects of the use of a weapon. While understandable that we should not dwell on these matters, for those of us who are more historians than collectors, we often must include perspectives that are not always pleasant.
Actually warfare itself is not pleasant, but we are studying weapons, so it is sometimes a necessary evil to put the good with the bad I guess.
You are right though, to try to minimize such details as possible.

The PC served well as a deviation, as I admit the topic was one encountered quite often in our pages, and always seems to get the editorial wheels grinding. Unfortunately, those kinds of topics usually end up with heated and conflicting results, even threads being closed.

The input on the lance pennons and detail toward Portuguese use is great! and the illustrations much appreciated. As you have noted, and as I have found in several sources, the pennon apparently did serve as an identifying element, contrary to what I had said in an earlier post. In certain cases there were separate units who had varied color combinations to specify themselves for reforming on maneuvers.
However, most of these lancer units seem to have used a nationally specific combination, such as black & white, Germany; red & white Poland (later adopted by England in recognition of the Polish ).

The notion of blood soaking cloth falls into the myth and lore category so often rampant in weapons study, and along with 'blood gutters' in sword blades, has in my view been thoroughly debunked.

Wayne, well noted about the skull and crossbones, a topic we have often covered in the many threads on pirates and their lore. As you have shown, this symbol goes back a long way into history, and was indeed used around burial places signifying of course death.
Actually the piratical connotation is believed to derive from the fact that in ships logs and rosters, a sailor when deceased had this symbol drawn next to his name. As many sailors became pirates, they recalled the practice, and considered themselves effectively 'outlaw' or 'dead to the world', thus the symbol for these brethren of the sea. Alternatively, the foreboding symbol of course signified death, or more accurately the 'no quarter' implication often flown by these pirates, previously signified by the 'red flag'.

The color red in signifying 'no quarter' was well known among Spanish forces as well, termed 'deguello' and accompanied by a musical durge (as seen in "The Alamo" movie). Perhaps the red color and addition of the skull and crossbones lent to the pennon choice seen here.

Ibrahiim, excellent image of the charge of the 16th Lancers at Aliwal. If I may momentarily deviate to certain significance of a 'gory' circumstance lending itself to history and thereby, tradition.
After this battle, there were many of these lances so encrusted with dried blood they were actually crimped. It became a custom of this unit to 'crimp' their pennons in honor of that battle. Years later, the custom was adopted by troopers of the RCMP in Canada, however was abandoned when Queen Victoria objected to their use of a hallowed tradition held by the British 16th Lancers.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... You are right though, to try to minimize such details as possible ...

A difficult task for an arms historian, so i see ...

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The notion of blood soaking cloth falls into the myth and lore category so often rampant in weapons study, and along with 'blood gutters' in sword blades ...

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...If I may momentarily deviate to certain significance of a 'gory' circumstance lending itself to history and thereby, tradition. After this battle, there were many of these lances so encrusted with dried blood they were actually crimped. It became a custom of this unit to 'crimp' their pennons in honor of that battle...

Haven't you already narrated this chapter in post #41 of this thread

Take care .

[Jim McDougall]

Yup, sure did, but often the previous posts are overlooked, so reiterating is helpful, especially if a passage is necessary for a point.
You're right too, it is hard to be a historian in the world of collectors and dealers, and what I have come to understand as separate worlds.
Thanks again for the informative entries.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... I will assume there is nothing piratical about your police force's use of the decoration since 1980. it is used by an assortment of modern military units to signify ferocity...

Currently an infantile taste, i must say

Originally Posted by kronckew

... I note from wiki' skull and crossbones entry that:
The 2nd Lancers Regiment of the Portuguese Army also use the skull and crossbones as symbol and "Death or Glory" as motto, as the regiment was raised by a former colonel of the British 17th Lancers.

As mentioned above in pennant no. 5; and as i said, Portuguese (real) lancers units gave place to military police units, their barracks/units still being called of Lanceiros.

That guy in the right of your picture; was by then minister of Defence.