Shotley Bridge swordmakers

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th October 2017, 11:52 PM

Perhaps a number of factors not least the weight of the French Government behind the Kingenthal operation whist Shotley was in decline and workers were being absorbed abroad and into the Birmingham sector. Klingenthal was also a lot closer to Solingen which by comparison to the Shotley concern was massive. Expert grinders and sword makers were close to hand whilst at Shotley they were leaving..as business dwindled.

Jim McDougall · 26th October 2017, 04:58 PM

Very well noted Ibrahim! As you note Klingenthal was very much government backed, and Solingen was actually pretty much 'overpopulated' with their becoming more commercialized and exporting widely.
Most importantly, as you have said, Birmingham was becoming ever more industrially oriented and determined to keep their market share over Solingen. No doubt the Shotley Bridge workers and demand went to the Birmingham and London area, much as we have seen with names like Mole.

Glen, great to see you here!!! You're an encyclopedia on the swords of these periods!

Mel H · 26th October 2017, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Very well noted Ibrahim! As you note Klingenthal was very much government backed, and Solingen was actually pretty much 'overpopulated' with their becoming more commercialized and exporting widely.
Most importantly, as you have said, Birmingham was becoming ever more industrially oriented and determined to keep their market share over Solingen. No doubt the Shotley Bridge workers and demand went to the Birmingham and London area, much as we have seen with names like Mole.

Glen, great to see you here!!! You're an encyclopedia on the swords of these periods!

It has to be said that here in the U.K. where matters of government and industry are discussed, the North / South divide is usually introduced into the equation. I'm sure that a couple of centuries since, a small community of tradesmen in some unheard of corner of England, two hundred and fifty miles from the Capital would certainly not have much going in their favour.
Many people 'up here' would quickly add that not much has changed, but that's another story.
Mel.

fernando · 26th October 2017, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel H

... Many people 'up here' would quickly add that not much has changed, but that's another story...

Definitely another story, Mel !

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th October 2017, 08:00 PM

See http://www.klingenthal.fr/anglais_2_a.htm for an interesting timescale at Klingenthal.

urbanspaceman · 26th October 2017, 10:22 PM

Hey Jim, sorry to ruin a distinctly glossy sheen on the Shotley Bridge image but there is definitely no connection between Mohll of Shotley Bridge and Mole of Birmingham. It was Robert Wilkinson-Latham's book 'The Swords and Records of Robert Mole and Sons (from 2008) where he declared the sad news. Apparently it was a genealogical trace-back from the Moles of Birmingham, and forward from Mohll of SB, and no connection was found. I have to say that the dates never lined up anyway as Mohll sold his entire works to Oley in 1724.
Here is an extract from an interesting article, that Ibrahiim has mentioned before, that tells of The Guild of the Running Fox:
.....Wilkinson Sword – the crossed swords logo of that company is believed to have come from the emblem of the “Guild of the Running Fox” – the Shotley Bridge sword makers' guild. The few remaining clues left are the Crown and Crossed Swords pub (originally owned by the Oleys), Cutlers Hall (the guild meeting place, now a private house) and the crossed swords on the old logo of the Shotley Bridge Hospital.
That's a great resource on Klingenthal Ibrahiim, thank-you.
Re. Klingenthal: back then, Birmingham was the 'Second City of the Empire'; Shotley Bridge had no chance really, once the Solingen secrets had migrated to Birmingham.
I haven't looked at Birmingham's early sword-making history: does anyone know of a good concise book on the subject? Or even just a comprehensive article. Mel?

urbanspaceman · 26th October 2017, 10:54 PM

I am now firmly convinced that the symbol of the bushy-tailed running fox (that - locally - has long been associated with Shotley Bridge) was started by Oley when the guild was established.
What I really want to find out is: was there, in-fact, any connection with Birmingham at any time, now we know it wasn't Mohll?

26th October 2017, 10:22 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 628	Mohll versus Mole Hey Jim, sorry to ruin a distinctly glossy sheen on the Shotley Bridge image but there is definitely no connection between Mohll of Shotley Bridge and Mole of Birmingham. It was Robert Wilkinson-Latham's book 'The Swords and Records of Robert Mole and Sons (from 2008) where he declared the sad news. Apparently it was a genealogical trace-back from the Moles of Birmingham, and forward from Mohll of SB, and no connection was found. I have to say that the dates never lined up anyway as Mohll sold his entire works to Oley in 1724. Here is an extract from an interesting article, that Ibrahiim has mentioned before, that tells of The Guild of the Running Fox: .....Wilkinson Sword – the crossed swords logo of that company is believed to have come from the emblem of the “Guild of the Running Fox” – the Shotley Bridge sword makers' guild. The few remaining clues left are the Crown and Crossed Swords pub (originally owned by the Oleys), Cutlers Hall (the guild meeting place, now a private house) and the crossed swords on the old logo of the Shotley Bridge Hospital. That's a great resource on Klingenthal Ibrahiim, thank-you. Re. Klingenthal: back then, Birmingham was the 'Second City of the Empire'; Shotley Bridge had no chance really, once the Solingen secrets had migrated to Birmingham. I haven't looked at Birmingham's early sword-making history: does anyone know of a good concise book on the subject? Or even just a comprehensive article. Mel?

26th October 2017, 10:54 PM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 628	Verification I am now firmly convinced that the symbol of the bushy-tailed running fox (that - locally - has long been associated with Shotley Bridge) was started by Oley when the guild was established. What I really want to find out is: was there, in-fact, any connection with Birmingham at any time, now we know it wasn't Mohll?

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25th October 2017, 11:52 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Perhaps a number of factors not least the weight of the French Government behind the Kingenthal operation whist Shotley was in decline and workers were being absorbed abroad and into the Birmingham sector. Klingenthal was also a lot closer to Solingen which by comparison to the Shotley concern was massive. Expert grinders and sword makers were close to hand whilst at Shotley they were leaving..as business dwindled.

26th October 2017, 04:58 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,297	Very well noted Ibrahim! As you note Klingenthal was very much government backed, and Solingen was actually pretty much 'overpopulated' with their becoming more commercialized and exporting widely. Most importantly, as you have said, Birmingham was becoming ever more industrially oriented and determined to keep their market share over Solingen. No doubt the Shotley Bridge workers and demand went to the Birmingham and London area, much as we have seen with names like Mole. Glen, great to see you here!!! You're an encyclopedia on the swords of these periods!

26th October 2017, 08:00 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	See http://www.klingenthal.fr/anglais_2_a.htm for an interesting timescale at Klingenthal.