The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 12:11 PM

Old 15th April 2011, 10:19 PM

Posted by:
Billman
Member

Join Date: Nov 2010

Yes, although in this case it seems to be decorative rather than for identification (of course it could be both).... Now for the $64,000 question - tool or weapon?? To me it is a very nice early example of a hedging bill - this type is common throughout Europe - I have examples from Wales and France, but they are also found in Spain, Italy and Croatia...

Known in Portugal as a foice, in Spain as a roçadora, in France as a croissant (also a coujard) and in Croatia as a rankun - the shape of the blade varies from region to region, but the back hook to push loose branches back into the hedge is common to all types...

A few illustrations....

(missing attachments)
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 02:56 PM

PAGE 7 MISSING. POSTS #181 TO #210

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 02:57 PM

Old 19th November 2011, 04:06 PM #211

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Good addition Denis .
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 02:57 PM

Old 24th November 2011, 01:32 PM #201

Psted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

This is a mark punched in an Italian Bisarma (Roncone) said to be from the XVI century, in discussion here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...9094#post129094
I wonder whether some of our members is familiar with this mark, apparently a stylized P.
Would be much obliged for any ideas !

.. Maybe someone with Armi Bianche Italiane by Boccia & Coelho ?

.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 02:59 PM

Old 25th November 2011, 05:55 AM #213

Posted by:
TVV
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area

To add to the thread, I am attaching a photo of a GENOA mark on a blade, hilted with a Sinai/Negev bedouin hilt. Pictures of the entire sword are available here:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost....42&postcount=16
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:02 PM

Old 29th November 2011, 01:43 AM #214

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by fernando
This is a mark punched in an Italian Bisarma (Roncone) said to be from the XVI century, in discussion here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...9094#post129094
I wonder whether some of our members is familiar with this mark, apparently a stylized P.
Would be much obliged for any ideas !

.. Maybe someone with Armi Bianche Italiane by Boccia & Coelho ? (Quote)

.
Thank you for adding this Fernando and I appreciate its being added here for the benefit of our study of markings. As has been indicated by Michael in the original thread it would seem most likely that this would be from the workshops of Peter Pogl in Thorl, early 16th century. He was armourer for the Emperor Maximilian. In Italy a majescule P surmounted by a crown in known 16th century, very much the period for these gisarmes.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:03 PM

Old 29th November 2011, 02:00 AM #215

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by TVV
To add to the thread, I am attaching a photo of a GENOA mark on a blade, hilted with a Sinai/Negev bedouin hilt. Pictures of the entire sword are available here:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost....42&postcount=16 (Quote)

Thank you for posting this here Teodor, and I really appreciate having these various examples of markings added to this thread.
The status of the Genoa marking as an indicator of quality on trade blades which travelled widely through many cultures trade networks has been long established. In earlier times the familiar sickle marks (dentated half circles) became associated with Genoa as the origin of the blades bearing them.
This was primarily due to the fact that the name Genoa was often placed between these double arcs...it seems actually the arcs were more of a guild related symbol and blades from a number of North Italian centers carried them. Genoa was primarily the port of departure.

These blades and thier markings profoundly influenced other blade making centers such as Styrian and later becoming the well known 'gurda' markings of blades in the Caucusus. Solingen often used them along with other marks and symbols. These double marked 'Genoa' names are seen on usually East European sabre blades, which often entered Arabian trade routes and were highly favored. In this case, these are clearly native applied on a well worn trade blade, but reflecting the long standing admiration for blades carrying this famed trade center's name.
.

19th October 2017, 02:57 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 19th November 2011, 04:06 PM #211 Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Good addition Denis . . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 08:19 PM.

19th October 2017, 02:57 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Mark in a polearm Old 24th November 2011, 01:32 PM #201 Psted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal This is a mark punched in an Italian Bisarma (Roncone) said to be from the XVI century, in discussion here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...9094#post129094 I wonder whether some of our members is familiar with this mark, apparently a stylized P. Would be much obliged for any ideas ! .. Maybe someone with Armi Bianche Italiane by Boccia & Coelho ? . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:03 PM.

19th October 2017, 02:59 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 25th November 2011, 05:55 AM #213 Posted by: TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area To add to the thread, I am attaching a photo of a GENOA mark on a blade, hilted with a Sinai/Negev bedouin hilt. Pictures of the entire sword are available here: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost....42&postcount=16 . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:05 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:02 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 29th November 2011, 01:43 AM #214 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Originally Posted by fernando This is a mark punched in an Italian Bisarma (Roncone) said to be from the XVI century, in discussion here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...9094#post129094 I wonder whether some of our members is familiar with this mark, apparently a stylized P. Would be much obliged for any ideas ! .. Maybe someone with Armi Bianche Italiane by Boccia & Coelho ? (Quote) . Thank you for adding this Fernando and I appreciate its being added here for the benefit of our study of markings. As has been indicated by Michael in the original thread it would seem most likely that this would be from the workshops of Peter Pogl in Thorl, early 16th century. He was armourer for the Emperor Maximilian. In Italy a majescule P surmounted by a crown in known 16th century, very much the period for these gisarmes. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:06 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:03 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 29th November 2011, 02:00 AM #215 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Originally Posted by TVV To add to the thread, I am attaching a photo of a GENOA mark on a blade, hilted with a Sinai/Negev bedouin hilt. Pictures of the entire sword are available here: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost....42&postcount=16 (Quote) Thank you for posting this here Teodor, and I really appreciate having these various examples of markings added to this thread. The status of the Genoa marking as an indicator of quality on trade blades which travelled widely through many cultures trade networks has been long established. In earlier times the familiar sickle marks (dentated half circles) became associated with Genoa as the origin of the blades bearing them. This was primarily due to the fact that the name Genoa was often placed between these double arcs...it seems actually the arcs were more of a guild related symbol and blades from a number of North Italian centers carried them. Genoa was primarily the port of departure. These blades and thier markings profoundly influenced other blade making centers such as Styrian and later becoming the well known 'gurda' markings of blades in the Caucusus. Solingen often used them along with other marks and symbols. These double marked 'Genoa' names are seen on usually East European sabre blades, which often entered Arabian trade routes and were highly favored. In this case, these are clearly native applied on a well worn trade blade, but reflecting the long standing admiration for blades carrying this famed trade center's name. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:08 PM.

19th October 2017, 12:11 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 15th April 2011, 10:19 PM Posted by: Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Yes, although in this case it seems to be decorative rather than for identification (of course it could be both).... Now for the $64,000 question - tool or weapon?? To me it is a very nice early example of a hedging bill - this type is common throughout Europe - I have examples from Wales and France, but they are also found in Spain, Italy and Croatia... Known in Portugal as a foice, in Spain as a roçadora, in France as a croissant (also a coujard) and in Croatia as a rankun - the shape of the blade varies from region to region, but the back hook to push loose branches back into the hedge is common to all types... A few illustrations.... (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:21 PM.

19th October 2017, 02:56 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	PAGE 7 MISSING. POSTS #181 TO #210 . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 08:18 PM.

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