Pattern Welded Curved British(?) Dagger

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by kronckew

thinredline, i think your deceptive bowie was made like that in sheffield as part of a high end carving set, possibly a hunting trousse, similar to the other boxed set. just because it has a guard doesn't make it a fighting knife. it should not be sold as a combat 'tactical' 'bowie' knife tho, even tho it would serve in a pinch. it's cutlery. the original bowie knife was of course, also cutlery, and likely a guardless chef's knife with a partially sharpened spine. a victorian carving set with short guards on knife, and the fork & sharpener steel )or is it a spike) is below. you can buy a very similar knife/fork carving set now, sadly in stainless.

the knife in post one looks new however, may be a new blade in an old handle, that doesn't mean it's bad tho, just not old. the chemical staining as noted would have worn off if it were used and cleaned often.compare the blade/guard join to the others posted, also. the original posted one, the join is gappy and should have been fitted better and gapless or silver soldered closed.

pattern welded steel was also produced in the heyday of sheffield knife making even as the transitions to stronger and better hardened mono steels, and after for presentation pieces.

just because it's pattern welded doesn't mean it's from pakistan and bad. even a great deal of the pakistani damascus is of decent quality. a lot of good modern knife smiths make their own 'damascus' from modern mono steels, high and low carbon alloys. it's just not as good as well made modern mono steels. even real wootz is not as good for a tool/weapon your life depends on. prettier tho, and the best they had then...

All really good points , but as I said , lots of these pattern welded blades are coming into the UK at the moment from Pakistan . You can buy at most UK Arms Fairs PW blades from Pakistan to fit anything from penknives to Viking swords ! And it is no coincidence that lots of these 'old / new hybrids' are also appearing just now . No problem with them as knives per se , but it bothers me when they are represented or implied as being something historic . This knife posted by Roland is an example of that as it was represented as being 'made in Sheffield ' .... I can believe the handle and fittings were , but not the blade .

[kronckew]

yup, you can change the dress, but it's the blade that counts most. bit like a keris... a US/PK or even a modern GB damascus blade just doesn't fit the stag & silver grip. i do like your 'bowie' carver tho.

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by kronckew

yup, you can change the dress, but it's the blade that counts most. bit like a keris... a US/PK or even a modern GB damascus blade just doesn't fit the stag & silver grip. i do like your 'bowie' carver tho.

true enough .... yes the carving knife I found at a show in Belgium ... I had to buy it as it has a Liverpool address ! There is an English guy who is very skilled at reshaping and ageing Victorian carving knives into classic bowie shapes.... they often have good Sheffield names with Victorian cyphers and crowns. He then re mounts them( often with old horsehead cutlery hilts and makes a suitable cross guard . He is well known as an accomplished forger ... many of his efforts he claims are in Manions and illustrated in Abels books . He has been inside for his efforts more than once .

[MitsuWa.]

Originally Posted by thinreadline

true enough .... yes the carving knife I found at a show in Belgium ... I had to buy it as it has a Liverpool address ! There is an English guy who is very skilled at reshaping and ageing Victorian carving knives into classic bowie shapes.... they often have good Sheffield names with Victorian cyphers and crowns. He then re mounts them( often with old horsehead cutlery hilts and makes a suitable cross guard . He is well known as an accomplished forger ... many of his efforts he claims are in Manions and illustrated in Abels books . He has been inside for his efforts more than once .

Considering how thin carving knives are especially from that era of cutlery manufacture it seems difficult to make a convincing Bowie hunting knife from one just by changing the profile. Spending time inside for such efforts sounds like something out of a Lovejoy mystery novel. Did not think such things actually happen

[mariusgmioc]

While spectacular in appearance almost all pattern welded blades coming from India or Pakistan have extremely poor mechanical properties making them rather unsuitable for cutting anything but... butter. But this is based on my observations, so I would like to hear othe oppinions as well.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

While spectacular in appearance almost all pattern welded blades coming from India or Pakistan have extremely poor mechanical properties making them rather unsuitable for cutting anything but... butter. But this is based on my observations, so I would like to hear othe oppinions as well.

modern monosteels are better mechanically. pattern welded blades were obsolete militarily soon after. they were in their day, the best way to make blades from variable steels. modern paki/imdian versions were not the best examples in the beginning, as the old skills had been lost, many are now a lot better than a few years back and do not deserve opprobrium without evidence. still, monosteels are and will be better preforming. a lot depends on design, and what you intend do do with the pattern welded objects and how severely you treat them. as in many things you get what you pay for. bad execution in 'damascus' is just as bad as in mono steels. caveat emptor, but there are still some decent makers there. just be cautious.

[A. G. Maisey]

I do agree that the performance characteristics of some pattern welded steel are very inferior to those of good quality, properly forged and heat treated monosteel.

However, pattern welded steel that has been made by a competent smith, using good quality materials, and properly heat treated, can perform as well as modern monosteel in some applications, and in other applications can outperform modern monosteel.

For example, if we use 01 (oil hardening steel #1) and either good quality wrought iron or a modern low carbon steel, say less than 0.05% carbon, as the foundation materials, the resultant mechanical damascus/pattern welded product will display superior cutting characteristics to the cutting characteristics of 01 used by itself for the same type of blade. Additionally, the 01+low carbon mechanical damascus will resist breakage better, can be straightened without reheating, and will be easier to resharpen than 01 used by itself.

The characteristics of good quality mechanical damascus are most definitely not universally poor. Consider the past applications of mechanical damascus, for instance, gun barrels.

Good quality mechanical damascus can be a thing of beauty, as well as a thing of very superior performance characteristics. It all depends on the material used and the skill of the craftsman who made it.