Difficulty’s in working with meteorite as a pamor material

purwacarita · 14th March 2006, 11:35 AM

What called Steel is a variation of Fe and C combination imho. Jim Hrisoulas has done well with modern formula but it'll take time before become absorbable into traditional methods of keris smith. If a Belgian was serious enough to commission a traditional keris smith process, don't you think that someone should repay the visit?

~Hing ngarsa sing tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani.

Pusaka · 14th March 2006, 01:04 PM

Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for that information. What is the maximum quantity of meteorite material you could successfully forge a keris with?
I remember being told that meteorite material used to be sold in the market in Solo, Jawa. If so what was that meteorite used for and where did it come from, it is doubtful that it was from the prambanan meteor IMO.

Purwacarita, interesting question. I have often wondered the same. The pamor layers could never be arranged to produce a capacitor effect because a capacitor needs an insulator material between the conductor plates to work. There is no material in the keris blade which would be considered an electrical insulator so producing a capacitor effect using pamor arrangements is not possible.
It is possible that you may get a primitive voltaic pile effect which would produce a miniscule surface current. In that case some pamor types would be better then others at producing it but it would have no practical use.

nechesh · 14th March 2006, 02:22 PM

Thank you Pusaka for making clearer the "gentle" question Purwacarita was attempting to ask. I was more curious about that than the translation, but i do appreciate Purwa going into the explanation of it's meaning again.
Purwacarita, that was some time ago. Indonesian is not my language and though it did look somewhat familar i couldn't really place it. So your "Please......give me a break!

" was really un-called for. I meant no sarcasm, gentle or otherwise. This is an English speaking forum and i believe that it has been asked many times in the past that translations be provided.
I would also ask that you don't enter into these discussions with a chip on your shoulder. If you have a problem with anything i said to you in the past i ask that you either keep it there or work it out with me in PM. I try to treat everyone here fairly based upon the dialog of the PRESENT. Dregging up past disputes in unrelated debates is both counterproductive and distructive to the current discussion, don't you think?

Pusaka, if you read carefully through the thread that Andrew linked in the beginning of this thread i think you will find a post that references a book which makes mention of the fact that empus were often given quite a bit more Prambanan meteorite than was necessary to make the commissioned keris. Perhaps this could explain at least some of the meteorite that used to be found on sale in Javanese marketplaces.

Montino Bourbon · 14th March 2006, 04:39 PM

In very early times meteoritic material was incorporated into blades because it was an available form of relatively refined iron. Later on, it was incorporated more for the 'Power' aspect, as it "came from the sky".

I have heard of keris that were made with various irons and steels, including one made from eight different types of steel, all of which were stolen.

This points to a desire to make a keris with more than just 'Normal' properties, and since keris is so charged with 'spiritual' energy the meteorite would be included in the mix to strengthen those qualities, rather than improving the quality of the steel to make a better weapon.

In ancient Mexico, weapons were left where a 'spirit' could touch them and make them more powerful.Chaka Zulu's first Assegai, a weapon that was instrumental in his view of military strategy, in that it was for tactically advanced hand-to-hand combat rather that the relatively formalized throwing spear used in "Throw and dodge" formalized fighting, was tempered with hyena and lion intestines by Isangoma, his spiritual advisor. There are many ways that weapons can be 'charged' in various parts of the world, and because a weapon is concerned with life and death it's often respected as more than a 'tool'. Weapons have been personalized ("Ol' Betsy", Ironsides") and rightly. If a weapon preserved your life, or took another's life in the process, it became more than 'just a friend'.

Gosh, I hope that I didn't step on anyone's toes!

MABAGANI · 14th March 2006, 06:59 PM

Ah...written words are like double edged swords, we are communicating and gathering minds but it won't replace face to face interaction where we'd less likely misinterpret each other if we took the time to talk. In a forum or learning session someone has to ask the questions whether they be innocent or not or there wouldn't be a forum...in a tapestry of all knowledge we'd all each possess less then a shred of a thread of a fiber of dust...lolz humor, patience and humility my friends
On that note...I like this thread, yet another one on the volatile keris. I would think on a spiritual level knowing even just a shard or speck of metorite dust used in a personal keris would be sufficient enough for some, without getting too scientific into the exact content, although the analysis is interesting.

nechesh · 14th March 2006, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

I would think on a spiritual level knowing even just a shard or speck of metorite dust used in a personal keris would be sufficient enough for some, without getting too scientific into the exact content, although the analysis is interesting.

Indeed, i would agree, sort of a homeopathic dose, yet KNOWING that for sure is near impossible. BELIEVING it on the other hand is just a matter of faith, and it is in BELIEF, not necessarily REALITY, that magick works (and i do mean works

). All real magick takes place within and is manifested without, the material object we use are merely tools for focus, so whether that meteorite is "really" in that keris matters little in the end.

On that note, i believe perhaps ALL of my keris might have just a little bit of metorite in them....

Pusaka · 14th March 2006, 11:47 PM

There are those in the Silat community who would argue that it’s more than just belief but that there is a quality a meteorite pamor keris has which others don’t have. Perhaps there are some Silat practitioners here that would like to talk about this, or not

purwacarita · 15th March 2006, 04:59 AM

Hi nechesh. Have you had a PM from me?

It's what I meant that we must treat fairly. There has been injustice but we cannot retaliate violence with violence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

The pamor layers could never be arranged to produce a capacitor effect because a capacitor needs an insulator material between the conductor plates to work. There is no material in the keris blade which would be considered an electrical insulator so producing a capacitor effect using pamor arrangements is not possible.

Hi Pusaka. C is an insulator and metal is inducable by surrounding electromagnetic field.

purwacarita · 15th March 2006, 05:02 AM

~Hing ngarsa sing tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut wuri Handayani

nechesh · 15th March 2006, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Hi nechesh. Have you had a PM from me?

It's what I meant that we must treat fairly. There has been injustice but we cannot retaliate violence with violence.

No Purwacarita, i am afraid that i have not recieved any PMs from you. Please try again.

Pusaka · 15th March 2006, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Hi Pusaka. C is an insulator and metal is inducable by surrounding electromagnetic field.

Carbon is not an electrical insulator; actually it’s a very good electrical conductor. If you put two metal plates with a piece of carbon between them you will find that it wont make a capacitor but that the whole thing will just short the circuit. I know a little about Electronics and Engineering

Pusaka · 15th March 2006, 02:02 PM

I am surprised, even with Boedhi Adhitya`s higher estimate the composition of a typical meteorite pamor keris is 94% Iron, 4% Steel and only 2% meteorite material.
I had always thought that the meteorite content of the pamor would have been several times that quantity.
I was shown a meteorite keris and the seller said it had a pamor made with 70% meteorite content, what do you think, is that even possible????

Considering the absolutely tiny content of meteorite in a meteorite pamor keris I don’t think the high prices for such items is even justified.

nechesh · 15th March 2006, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I am surprised, even with Boedhi Adhitya`s higher estimate the composition of a typical meteorite pamor keris is 94% Iron, 4% Steel and only 2% meteorite material.
I had always thought that the meteorite content of the pamor would have been several times that quantity.
I was shown a meteorite keris and the seller said it had a pamor made with 70% meteorite content, what do you think, is that even possible????

Considering the absolutely tiny content of meteorite in a meteorite pamor keris I don’t think the high prices for such items is even justified.

In a word Pusaka, NO, i don't think that is possible.

Sellers will tell you many stories in order to sell their wares. Caveat Emptor!

Jeff Pringle · 15th March 2006, 02:39 PM

I have made knives with 50% meteorite, and 100% is certainly doable, but the blade would not hold a very good edge. 70% should look very silver when freshly etched.

Quote:

Sellers will tell you many stories in order to sell their wares. Caveat Emptor!

Very true! 70% bandsaw blade (or other hi-N steel) would look the same as 70% meteorite.

On the meta-meteorite side of things, the Earth is made up of recycled meteorites, i.e. the entire solar system is made up of the same original dust cloud.
But the parts of the dust cloud that have been in cold storage for 4.56 billion years (meteorites) are pretty cool.

Boedhi Adhitya · 20th March 2006, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I am surprised, even with Boedhi Adhitya`s higher estimate the composition of a typical meteorite pamor keris is 94% Iron, 4% Steel and only 2% meteorite material.
I had always thought that the meteorite content of the pamor would have been several times that quantity.
I was shown a meteorite keris and the seller said it had a pamor made with 70% meteorite content, what do you think, is that even possible????

Considering the absolutely tiny content of meteorite in a meteorite pamor keris I don’t think the high prices for such items is even justified.

Hi Pusaka,
Please remember, the 12 kg. I said are considered as "raw iron". After 'refining process', (wasuh, 'to wash'), that is, to weld iron bar onto itself back and forth, the 'cleaned' iron amount would only as many as 5 kg. or so. The 12 kg are the raw iron materials needed to make what traditionally called 'Tangguh Sedayu', which is believed to have approx. 4096 pamor layers, which is by many experts here in Java, considered as the most-layered keris ever made in Java. Other tangguh may need iron less. Please also remember, all of this information, as I recall, came from Empu Djeno, which may have done some 'research' or experiment on this subject. I believe his father, Supowinangun, did not leave any note, because unfortunatelly, according to Empu Jeno himself, his father was illiterate. There is no exact amount on the materials used in keris making here in Java, everything judged by experience.

I have not read any old and 'credible' traditional notes/script/book about keris which explain the keris making process, and thus, we may only rely on the works of Westerner likes Gronnemen, Jasper&Pirngadie or Garret Solyom. In fact, traditional book likes Serat Centhini, as I recall, didn't write about meteorite as pamor material, while it warn about the 'danger' of 'unproper' pamor pattern. But other traditional books write a lot about the iron and it's 'Tuah' ('magic power'). It also said 'The Steel gives strenght, The Iron gives 'Powers', and The Pamor gives lusters/radiance'. Pamor also called 'Sekaring Braja' (sekar=bunga=flower, braja=weapon/blade). Thus, a keris blade without pamor, which also called 'Pamor Wulung' (wulung=black), exists, but I have never seen a 100% keris blade made of pamor materials. (while never seen is not necessarily didn't exist, I may confidently enough to say, there is no 100% meteorite-made keris blade in Jogjakarta Court's Pusaka Inventories). The reasons behind this 'fact' may be as many as we could imagine, but as Eskimos/Inuit http://www.taiga.net/yourYukon/col168.html and our friend Jeff Pringle shown us, it is possible to make a blade with 100% meteorite materials. If it is condidered as 'very powerful' by Javanese, some King/Sunan/Sultan in Java may commisioned one too

But I didn't said that it has no 'power' at all

Yes, pamor material were used to sold in market. Not only the meteorite, but also the 'Luwu' or 'Bugis' pamor. The meteorite ones were said to be more expensive than gold. The Prambanan wasn't an exclusion. While the biggest part was brought to Surakarta court, the small pieces left from it was 'mined' and traded for years. And also, when the Sunan of Surakarta commisioned keris(es), the empus may took the small pieces which was fallen when they cut the meteorite. This practices called 'Ngalap Berkah', and still practised today on virtually any events/ceremonies in both Courts (Surakarta and Jogjakarta).

About 70% meteorite content, well, have the seller do the scientific analysis on the blade? Or was he watching when the empu forged it?

Personally, I would very happy to pay more on a good keris with 'pamor wulung' (that is, without pamor) than to buy 'roughtly made' keris with meteoric pamor. I suggest, we should 'make sure' about what we really looking for/expecting from a keris, before we have one (or two, or hundreds

) If we have made our intentions clear, with the help of knowledges, we may found the blade we wish, and may avoid unnecessary disappointment. Just be careful when 'keris fever' come

Best Regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

nechesh · 21st March 2006, 12:07 AM

Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for reminding everyone that terrestial iron is considered very magickal in keris making, probably as much if not more so than meteorite. In fact, iron is a material that has been considered very powerful and magickal by cultures all around the world for a very long time.
Thanks also for the link to the article on Innuit meteorite blades. Isn't it nice that when Perry discovered the source of their iron that he set out to steal it all.

I did not mean to imply in my earlier response to Pusaka that 70% or even pure meteoric blades were not possible to forge, just that i doubted deeply that you would find such a make-up in a keris. I have seen such blades before, including this marvelous blade below. It is apparently in the hands of Harold Jacobs, an Alaskan native American. He states that it was one of 2 blades made from a fall near Klukwan many generations ago by a man names Khu ch'eesh. It is 27" long.

Mark · 15th March 2006, 03:40 PM

Purwacarita, Necesh, will you drop it, please? Consider yourselves warned.

Feel free to continue the substance of the discussion, and feel free to continue your personal discussions via PM and e-mail. However, leave out the side comments in your forum posts.

Jeff Pringle · 15th March 2006, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Jeff, correct me if i am wrong, but you seem to be speaking from a modern custom knife making perspective. I certainly do believe that higher percentage meteoric blades are possible to construct, but do you really think this is happening in the keris world?

You are correct, I am speaking from a 'custom knife' perspective. However, my methods are rather primitive/'historically informed' shall we say - I'm not using alot of modern improvements to help me. So all I'm saying is, it is possible to get quite a bit of meteorite into a blade, and it's doable with traditional forging methods.
I am definitely NOT well enough informed to say if this is happening in the keris world.
The difficulty of working the material and the romance/coolness factor of meteoric material would lead me to believe that meteorite content would tend to get exagerated and/or invented in most cases, but it also leads me to hope that there are a few traditionally-minded smiths out there working it, too.

Rick · 15th March 2006, 05:13 PM

I know of at least one .

His work is usually never for sale .

purwacarita · 17th March 2006, 12:46 PM

Hi Pusaka, I appreciate your reason back up your statement. Whether C is a good eletrical conductor or not...

( deep breath taken ) depends on its instrinsic impedance character towards applied voltage which before the avalanche voltage, the current will be very small and thus considered electrical resistor, but it will be a conductor after avalanche voltage. I saw an interesting scientific show that C was cooled downto 4 deg. Celcius by liquid Nitrogen, it becomed superconductor and resisted surrounding electromagnetic field. It was explained by the expo participants while I saw a floating black Carbon pill rotating above a magnet full of white mist from the Nitrogen. Electrical engineering is not my area and I don't know whether the floating C is pure or not, but above is my back up reason to stay put to say C in keris is insulator because of room temperature ( deep breath taken again ) until more convicing explanations

fit my logic. Yet it is hard to connect the mysterious yoni energy with scientific logics.

Hi nechesh, I have nothing against you & didn't send you any PMs. I would have if I had chips on my shoulders. When I bring forth weaknesses in my own community, I never mean to discredit nor to humiliate my own people, but it is the fact which should be admitted before it can be dealt. You know how it feels yourself when people choose to comment about your self rather than your quote. Please understand to comment on my quote rather than my self before count reach 10, you heard the modre ogre.

I can say idealism and I want to consistently live by it, and thus because of that I need to say I'm sorry I've stepped on your toes.

Hi Rick. When really it reaches 10, please feel free to delete this post or omit passage you deem necessary. I'll understand that you'd do what you have to do, and so do I. I hope this post clear up the fog.

~Hing ngarsa sung tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut wuri handayani.

14th March 2006, 04:39 PM	#4
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	meteorite in keris In very early times meteoritic material was incorporated into blades because it was an available form of relatively refined iron. Later on, it was incorporated more for the 'Power' aspect, as it "came from the sky". I have heard of keris that were made with various irons and steels, including one made from eight different types of steel, all of which were stolen. This points to a desire to make a keris with more than just 'Normal' properties, and since keris is so charged with 'spiritual' energy the meteorite would be included in the mix to strengthen those qualities, rather than improving the quality of the steel to make a better weapon. In ancient Mexico, weapons were left where a 'spirit' could touch them and make them more powerful.Chaka Zulu's first Assegai, a weapon that was instrumental in his view of military strategy, in that it was for tactically advanced hand-to-hand combat rather that the relatively formalized throwing spear used in "Throw and dodge" formalized fighting, was tempered with hyena and lion intestines by Isangoma, his spiritual advisor. There are many ways that weapons can be 'charged' in various parts of the world, and because a weapon is concerned with life and death it's often respected as more than a 'tool'. Weapons have been personalized ("Ol' Betsy", Ironsides") and rightly. If a weapon preserved your life, or took another's life in the process, it became more than 'just a friend'. Gosh, I hope that I didn't step on anyone's toes!

21st March 2006, 12:07 AM	#16
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for reminding everyone that terrestial iron is considered very magickal in keris making, probably as much if not more so than meteorite. In fact, iron is a material that has been considered very powerful and magickal by cultures all around the world for a very long time. Thanks also for the link to the article on Innuit meteorite blades. Isn't it nice that when Perry discovered the source of their iron that he set out to steal it all. I did not mean to imply in my earlier response to Pusaka that 70% or even pure meteoric blades were not possible to forge, just that i doubted deeply that you would find such a make-up in a keris. I have seen such blades before, including this marvelous blade below. It is apparently in the hands of Harold Jacobs, an Alaskan native American. He states that it was one of 2 blades made from a fall near Klukwan many generations ago by a man names Khu ch'eesh. It is 27" long. Attached Images

15th March 2006, 03:40 PM	#17
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Count to 10 Purwacarita, Necesh, will you drop it, please? Consider yourselves warned. Feel free to continue the substance of the discussion, and feel free to continue your personal discussions via PM and e-mail. However, leave out the side comments in your forum posts.

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14th March 2006, 11:35 AM	#1
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	What called Steel is a variation of Fe and C combination imho. Jim Hrisoulas has done well with modern formula but it'll take time before become absorbable into traditional methods of keris smith. If a Belgian was serious enough to commission a traditional keris smith process, don't you think that someone should repay the visit? ~Hing ngarsa sing tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani.

14th March 2006, 01:04 PM	#2
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for that information. What is the maximum quantity of meteorite material you could successfully forge a keris with? I remember being told that meteorite material used to be sold in the market in Solo, Jawa. If so what was that meteorite used for and where did it come from, it is doubtful that it was from the prambanan meteor IMO. Purwacarita, interesting question. I have often wondered the same. The pamor layers could never be arranged to produce a capacitor effect because a capacitor needs an insulator material between the conductor plates to work. There is no material in the keris blade which would be considered an electrical insulator so producing a capacitor effect using pamor arrangements is not possible. It is possible that you may get a primitive voltaic pile effect which would produce a miniscule surface current. In that case some pamor types would be better then others at producing it but it would have no practical use.

14th March 2006, 02:22 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thank you Pusaka for making clearer the "gentle" question Purwacarita was attempting to ask. I was more curious about that than the translation, but i do appreciate Purwa going into the explanation of it's meaning again. Purwacarita, that was some time ago. Indonesian is not my language and though it did look somewhat familar i couldn't really place it. So your "Please......give me a break! " was really un-called for. I meant no sarcasm, gentle or otherwise. This is an English speaking forum and i believe that it has been asked many times in the past that translations be provided. I would also ask that you don't enter into these discussions with a chip on your shoulder. If you have a problem with anything i said to you in the past i ask that you either keep it there or work it out with me in PM. I try to treat everyone here fairly based upon the dialog of the PRESENT. Dregging up past disputes in unrelated debates is both counterproductive and distructive to the current discussion, don't you think? Pusaka, if you read carefully through the thread that Andrew linked in the beginning of this thread i think you will find a post that references a book which makes mention of the fact that empus were often given quite a bit more Prambanan meteorite than was necessary to make the commissioned keris. Perhaps this could explain at least some of the meteorite that used to be found on sale in Javanese marketplaces.

14th March 2006, 06:59 PM	#5
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Ah...written words are like double edged swords, we are communicating and gathering minds but it won't replace face to face interaction where we'd less likely misinterpret each other if we took the time to talk. In a forum or learning session someone has to ask the questions whether they be innocent or not or there wouldn't be a forum...in a tapestry of all knowledge we'd all each possess less then a shred of a thread of a fiber of dust...lolz humor, patience and humility my friends On that note...I like this thread, yet another one on the volatile keris. I would think on a spiritual level knowing even just a shard or speck of metorite dust used in a personal keris would be sufficient enough for some, without getting too scientific into the exact content, although the analysis is interesting.

14th March 2006, 11:47 PM	#7
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	There are those in the Silat community who would argue that it’s more than just belief but that there is a quality a meteorite pamor keris has which others don’t have. Perhaps there are some Silat practitioners here that would like to talk about this, or not

15th March 2006, 05:02 AM	#9
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	~Hing ngarsa sing tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut wuri Handayani

15th March 2006, 02:02 PM	#12
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I am surprised, even with Boedhi Adhitya`s higher estimate the composition of a typical meteorite pamor keris is 94% Iron, 4% Steel and only 2% meteorite material. I had always thought that the meteorite content of the pamor would have been several times that quantity. I was shown a meteorite keris and the seller said it had a pamor made with 70% meteorite content, what do you think, is that even possible???? Considering the absolutely tiny content of meteorite in a meteorite pamor keris I don’t think the high prices for such items is even justified.

15th March 2006, 05:13 PM	#19
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I know of at least one . His work is usually never for sale .

17th March 2006, 12:46 PM	#20
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi Pusaka, I appreciate your reason back up your statement. Whether C is a good eletrical conductor or not... ( deep breath taken ) depends on its instrinsic impedance character towards applied voltage which before the avalanche voltage, the current will be very small and thus considered electrical resistor, but it will be a conductor after avalanche voltage. I saw an interesting scientific show that C was cooled downto 4 deg. Celcius by liquid Nitrogen, it becomed superconductor and resisted surrounding electromagnetic field. It was explained by the expo participants while I saw a floating black Carbon pill rotating above a magnet full of white mist from the Nitrogen. Electrical engineering is not my area and I don't know whether the floating C is pure or not, but above is my back up reason to stay put to say C in keris is insulator because of room temperature ( deep breath taken again ) until more convicing explanations fit my logic. Yet it is hard to connect the mysterious yoni energy with scientific logics. Hi nechesh, I have nothing against you & didn't send you any PMs. I would have if I had chips on my shoulders. When I bring forth weaknesses in my own community, I never mean to discredit nor to humiliate my own people, but it is the fact which should be admitted before it can be dealt. You know how it feels yourself when people choose to comment about your self rather than your quote. Please understand to comment on my quote rather than my self before count reach 10, you heard the modre ogre. I can say idealism and I want to consistently live by it, and thus because of that I need to say I'm sorry I've stepped on your toes. Hi Rick. When really it reaches 10, please feel free to delete this post or omit passage you deem necessary. I'll understand that you'd do what you have to do, and so do I. I hope this post clear up the fog. ~Hing ngarsa sung tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut wuri handayani.