Karud: the weapon that did not exist:-)

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So we have the simple collector who focuses on the object of collection, and we have the enquiring collector who extends his focus into the background of the object that he collects.

Neither approach is correct nor incorrect, it simply reflects the nature of the collector.

Actually most of the collectors I know and dealers as well are quite interested in the historical accuracy of descriptions but they know enough to separate the historical description that was used by the original owners / users...(who were not collectors) from the currently used and accepted description of weapons types that are different enough to be called by a distinct name.

I can name many such examples and since the pesh-kabz and the karud are very idenifiable by their differences SERIOUS collectors decided (way in the past) to give these distinct types names...a very simple way to categorize weapons and armor, this is what western collectors do as opposed to the people who originally owned and used these items. This does not make the people who use this method less scholarly, if fact in my mind it makes these people even more knowledgable since they have to ability to travel both worlds instead of being stuck in one or the other.

Having a "deeper understanding" does not mean you have to ignore the currently used terms just because some villager in the past, who did not collect weapons at all but simply owned and used them, and called all daggers, swords etc by the same name.

Ariel suggests they we ignore history and pretend it does not exist by stating that it is somehow unprofessional to mention the word "karud" in any so called scholarly publications, I think the exact opposite, I think it is unprofessional not to mention the decades old currently used descriptions....trying to erase the past is not very scholarly.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes ESTCRH, we all have our own opinions, and of course we are permitted to express those opinions, most people in this Forum seem to have a tendency to respect the opinions of others, just as I respect your opinions and I also respect Ariel's opinions.

However, my respect does not extend to blind agreement with any opinion.

[Battara]

Folks the point of debate and sharing of knowledge is to express and then reflect on what the other has said.

Let us all keep our emotional reactions out of this please. This is not pointed at any one person, but everyone.

[RobertGuy]

Just to lighten things up:

What is needed is for everybody to use the agreed standard nomenclature for these blades.
The Peshkabz should always be referred to by its proper designation, a Fritz Lieberson type 14 model 10, the Kard must be identified as the Fritz Lieberson type 14 model 11 and the Karud correctly identified as the Fritz Lieberson type 14 model 11A ( the model 11B designation should be avoided unless there is an R in the month)

Looks like a duck
Walks like a duck
Quacks like a duck

ITS A DUCK

[mariusgmioc]

Very interesting discussion but I must stress that in Persian the word "KARD/KARUD" simply means knife... OF ANY TYPE.

The same way the word "SHAMSHIR" means sword... of any type.

Or the same way the word "KILIJ" in Turkish means sword ... of any type.

Or the same way the word "BICHAK" in Turkish means knife... of any type.

Yet, it were the European researchers/collectors/scholars who associated all these generic local names to very specific types of weapons.

Whether this happened because of a missunderstanding of the local language or because of a deliberate decission is relevant mainly for the scholar and scientific accuracy. For us, as collectors, is more important to have clear and precise terms to accurately describe each type of weapon.

Since there is NO ethnographically and linguistically correct term to describe precisely the straight-bladed Pesh-kabz, I believe we are perfectly justified to use the term "KARUD" to describe it, even if it may be ethnographically and linguistically incorrect.

[Jim McDougall]

Robert Guy I like your style! great humor is a relief in these situations where frustration needs a relief valve.

Actually, I too am always fascinated by language and etymology, but I am far from a linguist, and do not speak any language but English. From this standpoint, I include these angles in my often deep research historically into these weapons and their forms.
While I do not agree that the term 'karud' be lifted from our 'jargon' (well put Alan!) I do highly applaud the research work and articles by both Ariel and Dmitry.
In all of this there should not be conflict or debate, but constructive examining of all of this research to comprehensively establish the data to emplace in the historical footnotes concerning these weapons.

I think of so many examples of these kinds of situations in ethnographic forms where terms have been often applied arbitrarily in western attempts to classify and categorize them. The koummya; janwii; khanjhar; janbiyya; of course 'katar'; and many, many others beyond the karud, pesh kabz, kard, bichaq group.
Virtually all of these have extenuating circumstances in their names linguistically and etymologically, but these are part of the fascination and intrigue of ethnographic arms as far as I can see.

It would be completely misplaced and counterproductive to remove any of these terms from our glossaries, as they are the semantic fiber of our countless years of research on them. To revise and update our future literature to include these valuable findings and new evidence on etymology adds profoundly to the history of these weapons, and that should be our focus.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Jim, spot on.

Maybe its time for a 21st century Stone to appear.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Very interesting discussion but I must stress that in Persian the word "KARD/KARUD" simply means knife... OF ANY TYPE.

The same way the word "SHAMSHIR" means sword... of any type.

Or the same way the word "KILIJ" in Turkish means sword ... of any type.

Or the same way the word "BICHAK" in Turkish means knife... of any type.

Yet, it were the European researchers/collectors/scholars who associated all these generic local names to very specific types of weapons.

Whether this happened because of a missunderstanding of the local language or because of a deliberate decission is relevant mainly for the scholar and scientific accuracy. For us, as collectors, is more important to have clear and precise terms to accurately describe each type of weapon.

Since there is NO ethnographically and linguistically correct term to describe precisely the straight-bladed Pesh-kabz, I believe we are perfectly justified to use the term "KARUD" to describe it, even if it may be ethnographically and linguistically incorrect.

I think this is a good, precise description of the discussion here. I would think that using an accepted and known name for this type of dagger, whether you think it is a variation of the pesh-kabz or a similar but completely separate type is a good thing, people who accept and use "karud" are on the same page when discussing these weapons. As for a any publications, why not explain the controversy about the name, then people will have a well rounded knowledge of the items history.

[ariel]

Eric,

It seems to me that finally you have actually read my posts. This is exactly what I have been saying from the beginning.

Good job.

[Ian]

I've watched this discussion unfold in a manner similar to previous issues of nomenclature. Each time we arrive at a consistent set of themes--the collector who wants precision mainly for cataloging purposes, and the collector with broader ethnographic and cultural interests who wants to understand how we arrived at a particular name for a specific weapon. I would suggest that these are not necessarily competing approaches, but rather complementary.

The early descriptions of cultural items by Western authors were often incorrect. Sometimes the items had various names in the original culture which makes their description more complicated.

In this case, Ariel has made a strong case that the word karud is actually a misidentification of the Persian word kard. Perhaps if the early Western scribes had written the word they heard as kar'd—with the apostrophe representing the short, soft vowel in the spoken form—then this confusion would have been avoided. However, we are left with the word karud that has now found general acceptance in the collectors' lexicon, and we are unlikely to expunge it.

Some of you have pointed to other examples where a general term meaning "knife" has been applied more specifically to certain weapon forms. I would add to this list the Philippine words bolo, itak, and sundang, each of which are generic words for "knife" but have taken on more or less specificity according to where the term is used.

Slight differences in pronunciation in the local cultures also contribute to confusion. For example, the familiar Moro barong (with a short "o") is also pronounced barung (where the "u" is pronounced as a long "oo", as in moot) in some areas of the southern Phlippines. I use the less familiar spelling when describing the weapon because this avoids confusion with the barong tagalog, which is a shirt commonly worn by Filipinos.

I'm sure this is not the last time we will be discussing terms for weapons and coming across the errors of the past. Each time we go through this exercise I think it's important to ask, what are we trying to achieve in terms of clarity of description?

What's in a name?

Ian.