Old African knives

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Ian

Africa is definitely not my bailiwick, but about 15-20 years ago I came across a number of old looking, large African knives with dark patinas that seemed very reasonably priced. In the process of getting my various boxes and closets of swords sorted out this summer, I thought I would put up some pics of five of these African knives for further identification and discussion.

I apologize for not having cleaned them, and that raises the question of whether they should be cleaned, with the iron blades brought back to bright, or left as they are with the patina of age.

After looking at a number of reference texts and our online resources, here are my thoughts about where they may be from:

A. Kuba (hilt wrapped with leather strip) OAL = 24 inches
B. Kuba (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 22.5 inches
C. Tetala (hilt wrapped with rattan strip) OAL = 19 inches
D. Kusu (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 18 inches
E. Tetala (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 18.75 inches

A, B, C and E show signs of wear and use. These could be 19th C. The remaining one (D) looks more recent and unused.

I would appreciate hearing from our African experts as to where these knives originate.

Ian.

Hi Ian,

Nice collection, I am no African expert but swords A and B look like Ngombe / Poto (Zairean) swords to me.
Miguel

[Sajen]

Hello Ian,

some interesting Central African knives/swords. I am not an expert by African blades but I have Zirngibl/Kubetz "panga na visu", a very good reference book. Another very good reference you can find here: http://www.memoire-africaine.com/armes2.html

Like Miguel I think that A & B are Ngombe or Poto knives from Congo (not Zaire), C will be also a Congo knife, possible Mbole, So, Topoke, Lokele, Mba or Genya tribe. D is clearly a Saka knife, also Congo. E is most possible a Konda/Kundu/Mongo knife, Congo as well. Compare with the given link, you will find similar examples.

Personally I would clean the blades from this knives, see also inside the link, they look much better with clean blades.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Hello Detlef:

Thank you for the link to that very informative web site. It seems that the more information that I look at, the more confused these attributions become. For example, example D that I posted, and you feel confidently is Saka, appears in Afrikanische Waffen (African Weapons) by Fischer & Zirngibl (p. 124) Fig. 221 where it is labeled as Kusu (see attached image from that reference).

Ian.

[Sajen]

Hi Ian,

like said, I am far away to be an expert by Congo blades, I find them very interesting and I've had and sold some very, very nice pieces and all my "knowledge" coming from the forum, panga na visu from Zirngibl and from the collecting in the link I posted. So far I know are the Saka and Kusu are neighbouring tribes but I am unsure.
Attached is a very similar knife like yours taken from the provided link and described as Saka.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Pieje]

I agree with Sajen.

A & B = Ngombe, Poto
C = Lokele, So, Topoke
D = Mongo group (mostly referred to the Saka) - nothing to do with the Azande.
E = Mongo group (mostly referred to the Konda).

Also, there are many errors in the book "Afrikanische Waffen" (African Weapons) by Fischer & Zirngibl. His last book ("Panga na Visu", which I would recommend to all interested in African weapons, and not expensive) is better, but contains some fake weapons..

C might be the oldest one (end 19th or around 1900), a small iron pommel is of older age than the larger pommels. The others I would say early 20th century).

I would definitely clean the blades, as at the time, the owners would do the same. They were proud of their weapons and would keep them bright and clean all the time.

[thinreadline]

I know that we have discussed the matter of cleaning and restoration many times within this group and it is remarkable how diverse opinion on this matter is , both in degree and technique . However I cannot agree with the notion that we should take our cue from the original maker or owner . In that case we ought to not only clean our blades bright but also sharpen them and periodically change both the grips , scabbards (and bowstrings if appropriate ) , not to mention redecorating and colouring faded wood or leather ! My view is gentle preservation rather than attempts at restoration and if a prospective item for my collection is not as perfect as I would wish , then I either accept it until a better example comes along or do without it altogether . I remember being told as a young coin collector 'no matter how much you poish a coin , you cant make it new again ' !

[Pieje]

I only speak about cleaning/preserving the metal, which is not the same as altering a weapon by sharpening its edge or colouring feathers.
Cleaning would reveal details of the forging process, beautiful patterns or copper decorations/inlay.
Daily use would keep the weapons in good condition. If stored or unused for a long time, they get dirty and rusty. Rust is not a patina.

I’ll add as an example some pictures of a nice sword from South Congo. The first picture is when I bought it. When cleaning I’ve found a nice surprise in the form of a great and unusual decoration (figure and flower) and 2 tribal repairs, a brass and lead inlay probably to fill up gaps that occurred while forging the blade.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Ian,

like said, I am far away to be an expert by Congo blades, I find them very interesting and I've had and sold some very, very nice pieces and all my "knowledge" coming from the forum, panga na visu from Zirngibl and from the collecting in the link I posted. So far I know are the Saka and Kusu are neighbouring tribes but I am unsure.
Attached is a very similar knife like yours taken from the provided link and described as Saka.

Best regards,
Detlef

next to the map I already downloaded, please find here a second one which might assist all of you further when it comes to ethnic / tribal determination

[Duccio]

A classic of African knife maps, from the book "Kipinga. Throwing-Blades of Central Africa" by Marc Leopold Felix.