Swords a la Portuguese

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Marc

The Bereber kingdoms had mixed relationships with the Islamic dominions in the Iberian peninsula throughout their history... it was during the time of last Nasrid Caliphs (mid-late 15th c.) that these hilts developed.

To be fully sincere, I find that the relationship between this kind of guards and the so-called nimcha and Zanzibar swords deserves a deeper study, although I don't expect to find any direct link. But that's because I'm afraid I lack too much data... To start with, I would like to know when these guards first start to appear in the Maghrib and in Arabia, and if it is possible to clarify where they appeared first. My preliminary bets would go to them going from Arabia to the Maghrib, and not the other way around, just for a question of raw power of influence. Besides, I've seen at least one exemplar of "Zanzibar", with stems (in Spanish they are called pitones) in the hilt and a short(ish), wide, cutting blade, with traces of etched designs and inscriptions in Arabic, but with a koftgariand enamel decoration typical of North African late exemplars. What it means, is hard to say without knowing where it came from and an approximate date for it, but at least it bears witness of a cross-influence. Too many questions and far too little data for anything but preliminary hypothesis, for now, at least in my case... gotta get a hold of that article relating these swords with Genoa, I've heard this argument a lot of times and would really love to see the data that led to that conclusion, it would probably dispel some of my doubts. Funny, this is one of the many questions that I have permanently in the back of my mind, probably because I like this type of swords so much...

How are the secondary arms of the guard called in English? I can't recall right now... in Spanish they are called patillas, "little legs" (and also "sideburns", funnily enough).

Fernando, thank you very much for your offer. The photocopies I have are from what I think is a small catalogue of the Daehnhardt's collection, or at least a part of it. I got them in the fly, a long time ago, without being really able to ask for details (one of these "take it or leave it" things, but I just couldn't let pass the chance of having at least a small glimpse into one of the most important arms collections in the Iberian Peninsula). I don't know if such a catalogue really exists and is still available somewhere...
Congratulations on your purchase by the way
And about being the sword in the auction... well, arms collecting and studying is a small world, after all. Spend some time in it, and you start to find the same names again and again and again...

There's some more swords of this design in Spain and elsewhere in Europe, at least the Spanish variation, some in Museums, some in private hands. One of them is indeed the beautiful exemplar in the Instituto Valencia de Don Juan in Madrid:

Salaams Marc, In respect of your fine details and about the Zanzibari odd example ... Perhaps this has been clarified already however, your description clearly seems to be of a Moroccan Nimcha not Zanzibari underscored by the pitones and koftgari not seen on Zanzibar Nimchas. What shape is the Knuckleguard and is there a simple rounded stud or a turtle shape on the pommel top? . Is there a picture we can view of this example ?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

Ibrahiim, you are bringing back a post submitted by Marc ten years ago. Perhaps his answer will take some time come in. It has been now about four years that he doesn't visit us. Last time i contacted him he said he was overloaded with work at his job and so couldn't attend to forum business... which is a pitty, by the way .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Ibrahiim, you are bringing back a post submitted by Marc ten years ago. Perhaps his answer will take some time come in. It has been now about four years that he doesn't visit us. Last time i contacted him he said he was overloaded with work at his job and so couldn't attend to forum business... which is a pitty, by the way .

Ah such a pity ... and was why I asked...Perhaps this has been clarified already?... seeing that there was a huge time lapse. His description is certainly of the Moroccan form..He wrote ;

Quote" Besides, I've seen at least one exemplar of "Zanzibar", with stems (in Spanish they are called pitones) in the hilt and a short(ish), wide, cutting blade, with traces of etched designs and inscriptions in Arabic, but with a koftgari and enamel decoration typical of North African late exemplars."Unquote.

In another thread I have just considered the difference in Knuckleguards on these two styles concluding at

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21833

both the reason for the variance and the conclusion placing the Moroccan position as clearly the instigator of the basic design of the hilt.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here an interesting Portuguese ,or in the least, an Iberian Sword:

[fernando]

Spanish Colonial, just like one had in my collection. Sorry but, nothing to do with typical Swords a la Portuguese... or a la Iberian .


.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Quite a late invention almost a revival sword...but with vestiges of the Jinete and accents from the Nimcha and with long live Spain on the blade. It seemed a pity not to include.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This is a Portuguese sword though lightly disguised as something else;

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Quite a late invention almost a revival sword...but with vestiges of the Jinete and accents from the Nimcha and with long live Spain on the blade. It seemed a pity not to include.

I guess the whole engraving has the misspelt inscription " VIVA EL REY DE ESPANNA" but, Zenete and Nimcha accents are hardly there ... and still i don't see this sword connected with swords a la Portuguese; far too long a shot ... perhaps a case for binoculars .

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

This is a Portuguese sword though lightly disguised as something else;

If i recall, there never was any evidence that this sword is Portuguese .