Knives from the San Giorgia auction

[Gonzalo G]

Maybe there is not a real contradiction. I don't know for sure in which moment the term extended from the blank armour to the offensive weapons in Spanish language. I doubt anyone knows. Or where this term begin to be used. It has been the matter of many controversies. We agree that it is related to the aspect of the polished steel. It could be earlier than the 18th Century, and the time-lapse would be closed. Or, as it is implied in your post, it could be adopter latter. But maybe the advent of the fireweapons, as said in your text, was a decisive element in this change of meaning (armour-to-weapons), but happenig earlier than the 18th Century. The fact is that the term, at less in castilian, was used first to the blank armour of the novel knight, as attested in the literature. The phrase "armado de punta en blanco" ("white armored from top to bottom", though this phrase could be better translated, since is a difficult old expression) is also a phrase designating a knight covered in armour from the head to the feet. Which means a knight with all the complete defensive and offensive weapons, prepared to battle.

As for the legal terminology, sadly too often legislators are not unusually people very ignorant about the correct terminologý applied to weaponry...or other matters...


Un abrazo

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... We agree that it is related to the aspect of the polished steel. It could be earlier than the 18th Century,...

Absolutey. Is easy to conclude that, in the source i quoted, the person expanding on the white arms concept adopted the date of the dictionary published by Bluteau as being date of the term origin, which is wrong. Bluteau was explaining the term, not creating it.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... But maybe the advent of the fireweapons, as said in your text, was a decisive element in this change of meaning (armour-to-weapons)...

This would have been the cause for the above confusion.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... The fact is that the term, at less in castilian, was used first to the blank armour of the novel knight, as attested in the literature...

I can't avoid looking at this from a different angle. I take it that, if the novel knight had no symbols in his shield and vests, those were considered 'blank' (for nothing). In this case, having no arms, would mean having no heraldry ensigns, as in escudo de armas.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...The phrase "armado de punta en blanco" ("white armored from top to bottom", though this phrase could be better translated, since is a difficult old expression) is also a phrase designating a knight covered in armour from the head to the feet. Which means a knight with all the complete defensive and offensive weapons, prepared to battle..

Nothing wrong with the translation; only that its meaning ceased being applied to knights and nowadays is attributed to those nobles and peasants well dressed for a cerimony.
Bluteau is very precise: armado de ponto em banco = armado da cabeça até aos pés de armas brancas = Undique armatus. A capite ad calcem armis ... He cites well known Roman personalities like Tito Livio and Tacito using such terminology, which brings the term back to the age of Christ, something i would never realize.
Rafael Bluteau (1638-1734), a religious born in England and died in Lisbon, was a great lexicographer of the portuguese language, and was the author of the monumental Vocabulario Portugues e Latino, a ten tome work (8200 pages).

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

I can't avoid looking at this from a different angle. I take it that, if the novel knight had no symbols in his shield and vests, those were considered 'blank' (for nothing). In this case, having no arms, would mean having no heraldry ensigns, as in escudo de armas.

It is correct, Fernando. But the term also implies that nothing is over the white steel, no ensigns.

Originally Posted by fernando

Bluteau is very precise: armado de ponto em banco = armado da cabeça até aos pés de armas brancas = Undique armatus. A capite ad calcem armis ... He cites well known Roman personalities like Tito Livio and Tacito using such terminology, which brings the term back to the age of Christ, something i would never realize.
Rafael Bluteau (1638-1734), a religious born in England and died in Lisbon, was a great lexicographer of the portuguese language, and was the author of the monumental Vocabulario Portugues e Latino, a ten tome work (8200 pages).

Very interesting, I didn't know this source. I will see if I can find that work. Thank you for the reference.

Un abrazo

[fernando]

Very heavy stuff; if you wish, send me a PM with your email address and i can try and send you a couple tomes each time. Maybe it works.

Abrazo

[Gonzalo G]

Thank you very much for your undreserved offer, Fer. I´ll send you a PM.

Abrazo

[Marcus]

I would like to invite comments on the portraits/caricatures on the brigand’s dagger (with a 14.5 inch blade, I would almost consider it a short sword). The pictures on the two sides appear to be the same person, so I wonder if they are the owner. Also I wonder about the cartouche with the initials "GGV". Would GGV be the maker or the owner? In the picture with the character standing with musket and sword, what is he holding with his left hand? What are the things spilling out of it?
During the long period of history when the Italian peninsula was a patchwork mosaic of rival city-states and warring kingdoms, conflicts between the states were often settled by troops of mercenaries. It is a thin line between an unemployed mercenary and a brigand. I was interested to learn that in 1860 the viceroy of Naples attempted to raise and army by amalgamating the numerous brigand corps in South Italy to oppose the armies that were supporting Victor Emanuel.

[fernando]

Hi Marcus,
The initials GGV would certainly be those of the owner; i don't see makers marks being engraved in such manner ... and in such place. The person depicted my well be a close to real portrait of the said owner; or just a symbolic atempt to portray a famous person of the period, apparently a high ranking officer. There was a preoccupation to make the musket also look real; bayonet, percussion lock and all.

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Marcus

I would like to invite comments on the portraits/caricatures on the brigand’s dagger (with a 14.5 inch blade, I would almost consider it a short sword). The pictures on the two sides appear to be the same person, so I wonder if they are the owner. Also I wonder about the cartouche with the initials "GGV". Would GGV be the maker or the owner? In the picture with the character standing with musket and sword, what is he holding with his left hand? What are the things spilling out of it?
During the long period of history when the Italian peninsula was a patchwork mosaic of rival city-states and warring kingdoms, conflicts between the states were often settled by troops of mercenaries. It is a thin line between an unemployed mercenary and a brigand. I was interested to learn that in 1860 the viceroy of Naples attempted to raise and army by amalgamating the numerous brigand corps in South Italy to oppose the armies that were supporting Victor Emanuel.

Just a stab in the dark - Giuseppe Garibaldi?