Koummiya for comments

Kubur · 27th June 2017, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

I have seen many of these koummiya / koummya / Khoumiya type jambiya and for the most part they have just not caught my interest, they seem to be more of a form of cultural identification and that the related genoui / janwi dagger was more of a serious fighting weapon.

Your example is quite nice and looks at least not to be brand as many I have seen lately are. I personally do not consider signs of use and age to be "condition issues", this is expected and something I always look for.

As for age, I rarely see one that appears to be really old, I have trouble trying to set some kind of age, hopefully someone here has some more knowledge of these types.

I confirm mid to end of 19th c.
Nothing to do with the 20th c. koummiya.

estcrh · 27th June 2017, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I confirm mid to end of 19th c.
Nothing to do with the 20th c. koummiya.

Any tips on what to look for as far as dating these go?

Kubur · 27th June 2017, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Any tips on what to look for as far as dating these go?

Pffff a lot

the quality of the silver work and brass work, the design, the end of the sheat, the blade...

You don't have such kind of koummiya in the 20th c.
to the exception of some royal / diplomatic gifts in the 60-80ties
but these koummiya have Spanich blades from Toledo

The early 20th c. koummiya are also a bit different.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th June 2017, 07:07 PM

Salaams Kubur, That is some kind of magical red pen? Perhaps you can give some idea of the different types of Koummya down the ages and how style altered ...for I have not seen a group of different aged Khoummya weapons and a catalog of the styles so as to be precise or even roughly accurate in determining age on these daggers...except as I say the estimate based on wear....

The nut at the end of the scabbard appears on many 19th and 20th C items and blade style seems similar except say on Lions Tooth Style blades and the straight version more like the S'boula and as far as I know and having read at length all the references, I can find no style change across the last couple of centuries in hilt or scabbard since these daggers follow the same essential rule of having not changed ..that being the central trait in Islamic Arms and according to the late Anthony North whose lead in sentence at Islamic Arms and Armour illustrates the point...i.e. They, (ISLAMIC ARMS) didn't change.

It is interesting that the key Forum treatise on these weapons does not lay down a format for determining age...and that if you have a valid system it would be an advantage to have it written up... I would very much be intrigued to know what it is.

In this regard I echo the excellent question set by motan at #1 which was Quote "My question is about the age. Is this a 20th or 19th c. piece? Is it possible to tell at all?" Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Sajen · 27th June 2017, 08:47 PM

This sort of daggers is far away of my knowledge but when I look to the koummiya in question I also think that we see here a 19th to early 20th century piece.

When you look to the loops where the rings for the carrying strap are attached you can see some serious wear which can't come from short or no time of use.

And I agree with Kubur that the overall appearance is the one I am used to see by good old/antique examples I've seen here and the few ones I've handled.
But like said, I am far away to be an expert for this daggers.

Jim McDougall · 27th June 2017, 11:21 PM

These are way outside my field as well, though I have touched on them on occasion over many years. One key writer here, Louis Pierre Cavalliere wrote a wonderful paper on them it seems about 15 years ago, but I cannot find copy.
One of the reasons for slow response, in my case, is going through as much material as I can find to answer as much as possible. In the mean time I always hope more informed people can add notes, which here they have. I think the latter 19th century pretty much right on this one (very nice BTW!).

I think as Kubur has noted, the blade is one key point in recognizing older examples. This one is particularly notable having a blade with rib, which is quite unusual as it is of course heavier. I have understood that newer ones have quite thin blades, and often without the distinctive bevels on the half of the blade distally .

The scabbard also: older ones have the key decoration on the outer side only. The fretwork typically seen here on the displayed or outer side often is in motif incorporating the 'five' (hand of Fatima) in crosses, which very much aligns with one of the primary significances of the design of these Maghrebi/Berber daggers, its defense against the evil eye.
The shape of the blade represents the boar tusk, an animal known for its defensive aggression, as well as regarded to defend from the evil eye.

The shape of the pommel is of course typically termed 'peacock tail', and while often characteristic of koummya, however there are examples without it. I recall once being told the form may have derived from the Italian cinquedea, however the crescent type pommels were known in Islamic hilts as early as 16th century, and in Middle East earlier.

The ancestry of the koummya as far as I have found seems early 19th and perhaps slightly earlier but I have not ever seen 18th century examples.
Most vintage examples seem around 1850s into 1920s, but it seems that these traditional daggers are still being made for authentic wear, despite of course the masses of them commercially produced for tourists.
The newer examples have the scabbard decoration both sides if I understand correctly.

The baldric holes are also a point of reference as has been noted, and wear in these signifies years of wear. Fresh, tight and unmarred holes of course note the obvious.

Kubur · 28th June 2017, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The shape of the pommel is of course typically termed 'peacock tail', and while often characteristic of koummya, however there are examples without it. I recall once being told the form may have derived from the Italian cinquedea, however the crescent type pommels were known in Islamic hilts as early as 16th century, and in Middle East earlier.

Hi Jim,

I think that you refer to this kind of Italian dagger and you are right these kind of pommels exist in Luristan and other middle eastern bronze age swords.
So it's basically impossible to say if it was an European influence or not...

Habibi Ibraheem, I'm sorry, it's true I love the red pen, my favourite weapon... I just wanted to point out the points to look at when buying a koummiya...

27th June 2017, 11:21 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	These are way outside my field as well, though I have touched on them on occasion over many years. One key writer here, Louis Pierre Cavalliere wrote a wonderful paper on them it seems about 15 years ago, but I cannot find copy. One of the reasons for slow response, in my case, is going through as much material as I can find to answer as much as possible. In the mean time I always hope more informed people can add notes, which here they have. I think the latter 19th century pretty much right on this one (very nice BTW!). I think as Kubur has noted, the blade is one key point in recognizing older examples. This one is particularly notable having a blade with rib, which is quite unusual as it is of course heavier. I have understood that newer ones have quite thin blades, and often without the distinctive bevels on the half of the blade distally . The scabbard also: older ones have the key decoration on the outer side only. The fretwork typically seen here on the displayed or outer side often is in motif incorporating the 'five' (hand of Fatima) in crosses, which very much aligns with one of the primary significances of the design of these Maghrebi/Berber daggers, its defense against the evil eye. The shape of the blade represents the boar tusk, an animal known for its defensive aggression, as well as regarded to defend from the evil eye. The shape of the pommel is of course typically termed 'peacock tail', and while often characteristic of koummya, however there are examples without it. I recall once being told the form may have derived from the Italian cinquedea, however the crescent type pommels were known in Islamic hilts as early as 16th century, and in Middle East earlier. The ancestry of the koummya as far as I have found seems early 19th and perhaps slightly earlier but I have not ever seen 18th century examples. Most vintage examples seem around 1850s into 1920s, but it seems that these traditional daggers are still being made for authentic wear, despite of course the masses of them commercially produced for tourists. The newer examples have the scabbard decoration both sides if I understand correctly. The baldric holes are also a point of reference as has been noted, and wear in these signifies years of wear. Fresh, tight and unmarred holes of course note the obvious. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 27th June 2017 at 11:49 PM.

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27th June 2017, 07:07 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Kubur, That is some kind of magical red pen? Perhaps you can give some idea of the different types of Koummya down the ages and how style altered ...for I have not seen a group of different aged Khoummya weapons and a catalog of the styles so as to be precise or even roughly accurate in determining age on these daggers...except as I say the estimate based on wear.... The nut at the end of the scabbard appears on many 19th and 20th C items and blade style seems similar except say on Lions Tooth Style blades and the straight version more like the S'boula and as far as I know and having read at length all the references, I can find no style change across the last couple of centuries in hilt or scabbard since these daggers follow the same essential rule of having not changed ..that being the central trait in Islamic Arms and according to the late Anthony North whose lead in sentence at Islamic Arms and Armour illustrates the point...i.e. They, (ISLAMIC ARMS) didn't change. It is interesting that the key Forum treatise on these weapons does not lay down a format for determining age...and that if you have a valid system it would be an advantage to have it written up... I would very much be intrigued to know what it is. In this regard I echo the excellent question set by motan at #1 which was Quote "My question is about the age. Is this a 20th or 19th c. piece? Is it possible to tell at all?" Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

27th June 2017, 08:47 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,206	This sort of daggers is far away of my knowledge but when I look to the koummiya in question I also think that we see here a 19th to early 20th century piece. When you look to the loops where the rings for the carrying strap are attached you can see some serious wear which can't come from short or no time of use. And I agree with Kubur that the overall appearance is the one I am used to see by good old/antique examples I've seen here and the few ones I've handled. But like said, I am far away to be an expert for this daggers.