Koummya for comment

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

The numerals on the scabbard are a dating peculiar to Morocco.
They reflect a hijri date, but expressed in European digits:
133[0] 1330 = 1911/12

Thank you Oliver!
I am wondering, given this is a date system rather than a silver proof mark, perhaps this may have been a significant year/date, for the furbishing of this koummya.
Without going into a great deal of complexity, in 1911, there was a rebellion in Morocco against the Sultan Abdelhafid, apparently involving certain geopolitical conflicts involving France and Germany. Ultimately, the Sultan abdicated in 1912, also giving de facto control of Morocco to France.

This may be an item commemorating events in these events in 1911/12, I believe historically referred to as the Agadir Crisis.

[motan]

Thanks Oliver for your interpretation of the date. Surely makes more sense than 1732. But still, it is strange to write a date and ommit the last digit, ins't it?
There are different traditions of writing dates and in Israel/Palestine and Jordan, the Gregorian date (after WW1) is used and it is written in Arabic numericals-exactly the opposite.
Anyway, I have also bought a koummiya recently of a quite common type and no special merrit, but I beleive it to be old and genuine. I was wondering if anybody knows, or can reffer me to a source about the regional attribution of koummiya styles.

[Kubur]

Hi Guys,

Well, normaly I don't fight to push my ideas. I think that's a waste of time (especally because some members are a bit stuborn).
Nevertheless here we have a silver proof mark. You have hundred of examples in North Africa from Morocco to Algeria... On guns too...
For the koummya look at the big hilted koummya called khanjer...

Kubur

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Guys,

Well, normaly I don't fight to push my ideas. I think that's a waste of time (especally because some members are a bit stuborn).
Nevertheless here we have a silver proof mark. You have hundred of examples in North Africa from Morocco to Algeria... On guns too...
For the koummya look at the big hilted koummya called khanjer...

Kubur

Kubur, it would seem this is more than an idea, and presenting support as you have is not a fight, but constructive effort for a correct resolution to a matter.
As I have little particular knowledge on reading Islamic dates or hallmarks, I would like to know, when did the convention of hallmarks (proof) begin in the Maghreb? The only material I could find concerned Egypt, where it was describing the practice since 1916.
Apparently the standard grades are 600, 800, and 900 (with 925 regarded as Sterling).
The data I read says that the Arabic numerals/letters are written left to right in the case of Egypt, but only one zero is used, thus 800 would read as 80.
It seems that the 800 denominator is seen most commonly as found on many commercial or tourist/souk items.

There is also the dilemma of how metal which is amalgamated from various melted down sources and varying purity grades is measured and stamped with such proof marks.

Are proof marks (hallmarks) which gauge silver purity used differently in the Maghreb (or Morocco in particular) , than from Egypt?

It does seem that hallmarks are often filtered into the field of motif, so that seems somewhat compelling here. However, if the numbers seen do not comply with standard measures, then perhaps they might be a date. It is clear this is not an early mounting, certainly not 18th century, but if read as Oliver has described, might be that significant date I have noted.

The events I have suggested were most certainly controversial, so would it be plausible that the date recognizing them might be subtly imbued in this manner?

[Oliver Pinchot]

If a Hijri date terminates in a zero, it is typically left off.

[motan]

Thanks Oliver. Always good to learn something. So, most probably it is a date as you mentioned -1911/2- and not a silver mark. This date conforms better with the style. Wooden hilt, 1911, but still above avarage and beatiful piece ..

[Oliver Pinchot]

Actually, it's part of the silver mark

[AKay]

Originally Posted by motan

.
Anyway, I have also bought a koummiya recently of a quite common type and no special merrit, but I beleive it to be old and genuine. I was wondering if anybody knows, or can reffer me to a source about the regional attribution of koummiya styles.

Nice Koummya, like the Hilt and Blade.