Indian pseudoshashka

[kai]

Hello Jim,

OTOH, this apparently well-aged hilt seems to be of genuine northern (rather than southern) Indian form including the minute notch at the underside of the gripping area. Thus, I'd be inclined to believe that this piece originates from the Mughal sphere of influence.

Not my area of expertise though, just my 2 rupees...

Regards,
Kai

[Tatyana Dianova]

I have heard many times following: when an item has North and South Indian features, it can originate from Deccan.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Although I have covered the subject at #51 I will place the main detail again since \I think we have a clear idea where this weapon comes from viz;

(The additional sword above is very interesting although I cannot be certain if the blade is European or an old Indian blade ground down? It is a fascinating development.)

Considering the previous posts I think the form is probably Deccani but similar forms developed or were influenced further north and variants based on a generally Bukharan style may be found in a greater area in Central Asia.

The origin of form, however, I think is placed at post #51 and on the reference http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/rare-...om-vijayanagar a Deccani weapon Quote "An unusual and rare form of South Indian sword from the Vijayanagar Empire Karnataka".Unquote.

Pictures below.

[Tatyana Dianova]

Yes Ibrahiim, you are right about the Deccani origin! I have found an interesting article from a very knowledgeable person on a 18thC Deccani dagger.

“This dagger could easily be Northern, but the decoration definitely hints to the Deccan. Most people tend to think anything with silver, or anything not typically Mughal is Deccani, but this style of decoration definitely veers South.
I have always thought that generally (and I do mean generally, as this cannot be used as a rule of thumb) that Persian influenced Indian work tends to be Mughal and Northern, and pieces that link more to early Ottoman work tend to be Deccani.
On this particular dagger, the style of splayed floral work, with jagged edges is seen quite often on early Deccani work, and even earlier Ottoman textiles and art. The decoration on the dagger is not exactly this kind of work, but the similarities are definitely there. The dagger is cruder in style, so definitely not of the earlier period (but, decoration aside, the dagger form itself is not too early). Also, if you look at the line that runs down the inside handle, and has a squiggly decoration inside. This kind of work, thinly laid onto crude cross-hatching had always been reminiscent of later northern (Punjabi) work, but it also annoyingly kept cropping up on early Ottoman work (some armour, and a few examples of maces). ”

[Tatyana Dianova]

The following pictures illustrate the text above.
"First image is Ottoman, and an almost edible textile of the late 16th/early 17thC. You can clearly see the influences of the later Deccani blazons which decorated all art, but most especially the bidri work. The other 4 images are Deccani, and mostly of the 17thC. Last one is a jade hilt. the rest are bidriware."

[kai]

Hello Tatyana,

Your pics are out of sync with the text. You can determine the order by separately uploading them one by one! (No need to close the attachment window - just hit upload after selecting each pic...)

BTW, I'd also suggest to also give the name of the person you're quoting for future reference.

Regards,
Kai

[Tatyana Dianova]

This one is Ottoman, the rest are Deccani.
The quote is from a private communication, and I am not sure if I should give the name without the author's permission...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Forum Library References;
A. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=843812
B. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=SHASHKA
C. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=SHASHKA
D. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=SHASHKA
E. Or simply type in Shashka to Search for a full list of threads and select.

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

I have heard many times following: when an item has North and South Indian features, it can originate from Deccan.

Salaams Tatyana Dianova ~ I agree entirely with that. As a side issue however, I am unsure if your straight bladed weapon is a South Indian derivative or a replaced blade on a Northern style ...if it in fact is a replacement and not simply a worn down blade. Nonetheless it is a fascinating subject.

In this regard I wish to play "The Devils Advocate" and speak for the weapon in what I believe is its correct role as a South Indian Sword. In this respect I invite comments.

A South Indian project sword shown below comprises a few simple parts viz; Hilt, Knuckleguard, Knuckleguard base, Tunkou and Blade. Taking each part separately I will describe how each item belongs to a South Indian form. For this exercise I omit significant blade detail since it is impossible when trying to close in on a typography of regional description as Indian sword blades migrate all over the spectrum but base my assumptions on the other parts, however, I add a photo showing what I believe could have been the technique in broad terms of using this thin cyclic technique slashing blade behind a Buckler ...The technique is present in South Indian martial arts today.

Thus I describe ~

1. Hilt I select a similar hilt from the arsenal of South Indian weapons for comparison; The Pichangeti Dagger... See Picture below. This hilt is unlike Shashka form since it is birdhead or pistol grip form and although Mughal weapons with similar hilts were purchased by Othmanli court buyers the form was never transmitted to Shashka or other swords to the North...and since the Shashka hilt never went the other way....we are looking at a regional Southern Indian form only.

Note that great power can be transmitted through the weighted hilt with a heavy pommel counterbalance to a thin curved blade in the downward strike and naturally the weapon was not effective in the thrust particularly against armour..I assume that great speed was essential and that slashing cuts were the order of the day where moves were enacted around the Buckler style shield underlining the speed factor of this technique.

2. Knuckleguard No sword of the Shashka type has one..but that typically the finial being Lotus bud form is Indianwhich means that when sheathed, this weapon sits differently in the scabbard whereas the Shashka embeds right up to its pommel ... The project weapon has a knuckleguard thus sits differently in its scabbard.

3. Knuckleguard and base See below photos showing the elephant zoomorphology WITH ears, teeth and a trunk !! The basic shape may be present in other regions hilt base designs but no other region shows the foundation as an elephant head which would point to this being not only Indian but regional Indian....and certainly not absorbed out of Ottoman Bukharan or Afghan theatres.

4. Tunkou Relations with China were ongoing in many regions of India indicating that the transition of Tunkou to this weapon happened through trade and showing that other southern weapons also may have Tunkou design transfer such as on Kastane etc.

5. Blade showing a simple picture of how flimsy bladed weapons were used ...of this nature... behind a Buckler..

😎 In conclusion; the project sword is neither Pseudo nor Shashka but is a specific South Indian Sword design which evolved solely in Southern India and is unrelated to Afghan, Bukharan, Caucasian, Persian or other miscellaneous Shashka types except distantly by vague and unrelated accidental look alike factors not attributable or traceable to this weapon.

Pictures Below are~

1. Pichangeti showing both the rounded Pistol grip and Birdhead variety of South India.
2. Shashka Form Hilt.
3. A highly ornate gold and black South Indian example showing the zoomorphic elephant head; ears and mouth with trunk (as the knuckleguard) and missing Lotus bud finial.
4. A Project Sword; from Ashok Arts.
5. High speed sword work with flimsy curved blades and knuckleguards behind Buckler Shields.
6. Map showing regions of South India.
7. How the Shashka sits in its scabbard.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Beautifully formatted, illustrated and linked entry Ibrahim! and presents a fascinating array of considerations as we look more into these curious anomalies.

Before continuing I would like to address the intriguing but unfortunate title on this thread, which refers to the sword of the original post, and as I believe has been mentioned, has nothing to do with the 'shashka' type sabre. The term 'psuedo' as has been discussed is even more misplaced and seems has been tempting us 'down the garden path'.

The examples you have posted with the guardless character and similar features, most expressly the 'tunkou', offer keen insight into others which seem to fall into this spectrum, and appear to have southern India provenance.

I would suggest that this feature on the blade of the weapon of the OP, is not actually a tunkou at all, but more aligned with the decorative lobed palmette cuffs seen on many Deccani daggers, which extend in the manner of a langet over the blade root under the guard or base of hilt.

The shape of this hilt, seems primarily to align with the Mughal daggers, often of kard form, of the northern areas, and typically have the faceted bolster at the base of the grip and are guardless. These have the same lobed or flueret style cuff extending over the back of the blade across and in the same asymmetrical diagonal configuration basically as the 'tunkou' of earlier swords and many Chinese dao.

What is interesting in Tatyana's example posted, is that this feature exists below the faceted bolster, essentially an incongruent blend of 'north and south'! The faceted bolster of Persian and Central Asian Mughal north, and the palmette type cuff of Deccani south, hybridized with a rapier blade.

It is important here to note that the 'tunkou' or for that matter, even the palmette type cuff or langet Mughal items, much in the manner of the tunkou on yataghans or Ottoman weapons, seems to have had stylistic importance beyond any pragmatic purpose.

In many weapons, koftgari applications are added to blades in exactly the same shapes, decoration and location at the blade root or ricasso to vestigially represent this key feature. I recall a M1788 British cavalry sabre blade mounted on a Deccani tulwar (shamshir type hilt) which had this vestigial tunkou koftgari applied in exactly this manner.

The idea of rapier blades is not new to the southern regions in India, in fact such type blades are seen on early iconography. However, the use and popularizing of the European rapier blades seems to have become most notable during the British presence in the 18th c.
It is tempting to consider this may be an atavistic piece which follows the accord with the daggers of the north and in degree the south, using a blade repurposed to the rapier form in traditional interpretation.

With the other examples of these types, as Ibrahiim has well posted, there are great opportunities to examine the climate of their development. While the scrolled knuckleguard is well present in many hilts to the north, in some reading it does seem that Welch does consider this style to have moved to the north from southern origins (noted in 'Arms of the Muslim Knight' p.201).

[Tatyana Dianova]

Interesting insightes Jim - as usual from your side!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

By Jim McDougall It is important here to note that the 'tunkou' or for that matter, even the palmette type cuff or langet Mughal items, much in the manner of the tunkou on yataghans or Ottoman weapons, seems to have had stylistic importance beyond any pragmatic purpose.

Salaams Jim, It could be that regarding Tunkou we are looking at a Red Herring. My take on the wrap is that it adds more weight to the power end of the blade and that it secures the weapon in the scabbard far better preventing it from rattling around or falling out.
Thanks for your informative reply..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gonzalo G]

Interesting thread!

In my humble opinion, the "tunkou" also helps much in reducing the nasty vibrations of the blade when you hit in the wrong manner. This protects the hand and the blade. But I can be wrong. If you don´t want to risk an old sword to test it, try it with a long machete.
Regards