Bronze keris ?

[mariusgmioc]

Very interesting! Thank you Alan for this concise introduction to history!

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Marius, I've always found this sort of stuff interesting, and the metal working skills that were developed on the Indian Sub-Continent are truly amazing.

It has been said that the peoples of the Sub-Continent are the Masters of Metal.

In fact, it is entirely possible that there would be no pamor construction in Javanese weaponry, but for the influx of Indian metal workers, especially smiths, to the North Coast of Jawa.

However, here we talk about keris, and that means Maritime South East Asia, and the interesting thing in this area is that there was no distinct bronze age nor a distinct beginning to the use of iron. Both technologies appear to have begun and developed at the same time.

[Pusaka]

A. G. Maisey

One problem is why shouldn't Iron be mentioned in the Vedas when everything else is. If at the time the Vedas were composed they knew about it they would have wrote about it. The term Ayas is often translated Iron however many scholars do not believe Ayas is Iron.

According to the mythology long before the Aryans entered India an Asura King called maya had escaped the destruction of tripura. He was a master astronomer, metallurgist, architect, herbalist, linguist and siddha. He is known to have wrote many texts among them the prenarva veda, the first veda.

So in India first we have an assuric civilisation followed by an aryan civilisation. The aryans however appear to be later relatives of the asuras.

The homeland of the Aryans in vedic text is called Arya Varta, Airyana Vaeja in Zoroastrian text. Maya the Asuran king was born in Romakapura. Both the asuran homeland and the later aryan homeland are noted as being in the same geographic area, both being at the immediate base of the Sumeru therefore they are as peoples related.

[A. G. Maisey]

Pusaka, there is much that is not mentioned in the Vedas, and I do not know why.

The Aryans were pastoralists, they moved into India, they brought verbal traditions with them, encountered a Bronze Age culture, spread through the Indian Sub-Continent, and as they spread they carried aspects of the material culture of the indigenous people of India with them.

By the time that the era begun by the Aryans, that is, the Vedic Age, was replaced by the Hindu belief systems, iron was widely used throughout India.

In their homeland, immediately prior to the migration into the Sub-Continent, it seems probable that iron was unknown. Similarly, the first major culture that the Aryans encountered in India was still a Bronze Age culture, even though Iron was being made and used in other parts of India at that time.

We have a very good idea of when the Iron Age began in various parts of the world.

We have know when the Vedas were written.

We know that the only part of the Vedas that was originated outside of India is the Samhitas, which is the oldest part of the Vedas.

We know that Ashvamedha was performed in ancient times, and that there is a possibility that it has been performed in relatively recent times.

We know approximately when the Aryan migrations began

There appears to be no longer any scholarly debate about any of this.

I am aware that there is a lot popular content, and some rather unpleasant debate on the net around the subjects raised here, but I prefer not to involve myself in this type of discussion. There is a place for myth, legend and popular belief, there is a place for that which is accepted as factual, or at least probably factual, by the academic community. Sometimes I like to play with the myth, legend, popular belief thing, other times I prefer to try to stay as closely in tune as possible with the academic stream of thought. In this present matter I tend to prefer academia to popularism.

[A. G. Maisey]

Pusaka, the Asuras are mythological beings.

They exist in myth, not in reality.

Yes, they are mentioned in old Indian texts, including the Vedas, and most especially in the Samhitas, the oldest part of the Vedas. In the Samhitas the word "Asura" is used to describe any sort of spirit being, whether good or bad.

The Asuras were not real, living, breathing people, and they did not have any civilisation.

The Sanscrit word "ayas" has many meanings, dependent upon context. One of those meanings is "iron".

However, the word "ayas" is in no way related to the word "Aryan"

When the Aryans entered India they referred to themselves as "The Noble Ones":- the "Arya" in Sanscrit.

The words "arya" --- "noble" + a whole heap of similar derivatives, and "ayas" --- many different meanings dependent on context, have no relationship at all.

The Aryans did not discover iron technology, but they sure made use of it.

[Kulino]

Dear all,
Not sure whether this can be classified as Keris. It is a bronze and it has a certain age.
Anyway, a nice addition to chew on.