Solingen Presentational Sword

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The high quality blade is indicated with the term 'eisenhauer' (= iron cutter) both in the blade above makers name at forte as well as in the decorative flourish etched on the blade (iron cutter etched in damask) . The etched Damascus pattern is decorative of course.

Hello Jim,

I know next to nothing about the blades from my own country but I am maybe able to help with the inscriptions. I've googled a little bit and found that the term "EISENHAUER" is a quality grade and mean that the blade is proved by "Nagelprobe", a prove of the edge quality when I understand correct.
The other term seems to say that the blade is from real Damascus also when I would agree with you, it look like "fake" Damascus. But the term say clear "real Damascus"!

For the other words I respond later.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

The other inscription is not complete, who is the presenter from the sword I can't see but it was given to the "more as highest venerated" (hochverehrtesten) commandant....(here again is a part I can't read because not visible complete) Alexander Venkarini (?) in the year 1875. I just need to read it complete.
The Presenter is any division.

[Jim McDougall]

Detlef,
Thank you so much for that input!!!
There are quite a few guys around here who know these kinds of 'watered steel' blades, and I am about as far from a metallurgist as they come. I have always been under the impression that a faux Damascus was etched or somehow produced on the blade.
However, I know that while the mystery of wootz making was pretty much lost, in Germany and I think Russia, the skilled artisans did achieve some level of the cherished steel sometime in the 19th c.
Excellent information on the 'Eisenhauer' term, I will add to notes.
All the best
Jim

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Detlef,
Thank you so much for that input!!!

Glad that I could be from help!

Best regards,
Detlef

[kai]

Alex, this is him:

Hauptmann 2. Cl[asse] Alexander Venturini
Commandant der Sanitäts-Abtheilung Nr. 10 zu Innsbruck (Juli 1870 - [1875?])

Captain 2nd class Alexander Venturini
Commander of the 10th Medical Department/Regiment at Innsbruck (July 1870 - [1875?])

https://books.google.de/books?id=1vp...er%20venturini
[Heck, doesn't work: remove alexander in the search field at the left hand side and hit the search button - this takes you to p. 133]

Regards,
Kai

[ALEX]

Thank you very much, Jim, Detlef, Fernando, Kai, for such informative comments. Kai, thank you for finding the person in the register.
I will also try to make better pictures and post later. Thanks again!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

Captain 2nd class Alexander Venturini
Commander of the 10th Medical Department/Regiment at Innsbruck (July 1870 - [1875?])

Hello Kai,

very well done! Have had problems to read the surname.

Regards,
Detlef

[kai]

Hello Jim,

There are quite a few guys around here who know these kinds of 'watered steel' blades, and I am about as far from a metallurgist as they come. I have always been under the impression that a faux Damascus was etched or somehow produced on the blade.
However, I know that while the mystery of wootz making was pretty much lost, in Germany and I think Russia, the skilled artisans did achieve some level of the cherished steel sometime in the 19th c.

"Echt-Damast" doesn't refer to wootz but rather a pattern-welded blade (made from laminated steel). As Detlef said, the maker does claim it to be real PW. For most of the blade this seems true (from the back of the blade, top of the close-up), whereas along the edge (lower side of the pic) there seems to be some faux pattern added by wax resist etching!

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

"Echt-Damast" doesn't refer to wootz but rather a pattern-welded blade (made from laminated steel).

Have thought that this is clear!

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by Sajen

... The other term seems to say that the blade is from real Damascus also when I would agree with you, it look like "fake" Damascus. But the term say clear "real Damascus"! ...

I can see why Jim and Detlef saw the pattern as being acid etch, i.e. artificial surface applied. May I question this? Having some resemblance to wax resist method, it lacks the details that such method would produce due to application of a template that results in sequential repeats in the pattern. I do not see such repeats, nor the template being used here. To me this indicates true mechanical Damascus, in line with such stated description on the blade. Is there another resist method that could be used to yield a random pattern, etc?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by ALEX

I can see why Jim and Detlef saw the pattern as being acid etch, i.e. artificial surface applied. May I question this? Having some resemblance to wax resist method, it lacks the details that such method would produce due to application of a template that results in sequential repeats in the pattern. I do not see such repeats, nor the template being used here. To me this indicates true mechanical Damascus, in line with such stated description on the blade. Is there another resist method that could be used to yield a random pattern, etc?

Alex,

now I am very sure to see real pattern welding and I am not surprised about this. It's not only a identification by seeing but also a matter of feeling. I am sure that the blade is pattern welded. Roland could be a candidate to tell more about this.

Regards,
Detlef

[kai]

Hello Alex,

Having some resemblance to wax resist method, it lacks the details that such method would produce due to application of a template that results in sequential repeats in the pattern. I do not see such repeats, nor the template being used here. To me this indicates true mechanical Damascus, in line with such stated description on the blade. Is there another resist method that could be used to yield a random pattern, etc?

The upper part of the blade is clearly pattern-welded: the darker sigmoid pattern (my added green line) is the lowest pw part.

The pattern below this line is clearly faux in my book: despite trying to look like pattern-welding, it is quite erratic and just doesn't make sense from a blacksmith POV (I have indicated a few of the more obvious areas that look problematic. I believe this was done to also decorate the inserted edge en suite with a similar pattern.

I reckon not many lay people will recognize this trick; I believe the etched pattern (or rather the wax) was drawn by hand - a technique also utilized in other regions of the world (in varying quality).

Regards,
Kai

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jim,

I know next to nothing about the blades from my own country but I am maybe able to help with the inscriptions. I've googled a little bit and found that the term "EISENHAUER" is a quality grade and mean that the blade is proved by "Nagelprobe", a prove of the edge quality when I understand correct.


Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

"Nagelprobe" is something different! "Nagelprobe" has nothing to do with "Eisenhauer". Even the german Wikipedia explanation is wrong.

"Eisenhauer" means that the blade is able to cut through an ordinary 0.5" (or similar) nail without traces on the edge, except a tiny discoloration.

All the early "Eisenhauer" blades had to pass this test, later it was more a symbol for quality without a specific test.


Best wishes,
Roland

[Sajen]

Hi Roland,

like said, I know nothing about this area of collecting and repeat what I found by google! And like said in up, I've thought already that you will be able to tell more!

Best,
Detlef

[kai]

Hello Roland,

"Nagelprobe" is something different! "Nagelprobe" has nothing to do with "Eisenhauer". Even the german Wikipedia explanation is wrong.

Could you please expand on this?

"Eisenhauer" means that the blade is able to cut through an ordinary 0.5" (or similar) nail without traces on the edge, except a tiny discoloration.

Nails are usually made from very mild steel; if you anneal them, they should pose no problem to any hardened steel blade. A thick iron rod may still pose a challenge - it seems more of a test for a good edge geometry (and sword technique) to me though!

Regards,
Kai

[silberschatzimsee]

http://www.wissen.de/wortherkunft/nagelprobe

Dunno how legitim this source is though

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Roland,


Could you please expand on this?



Nails are usually made from very mild steel; if you anneal them, they should pose no problem to any hardened steel blade. A thick iron rod may still pose a challenge - it seems more of a test for a good edge geometry (and sword technique) to me though!

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

you are right, the iron rods for testing the "Eisenhauer" were made from pretty soft iron, "Eisenhauer" is mainly an early marketing slogan. In England they had a similar test "Guaranteed to cut iron" or so.


The "Nagelprobe" I know comes from razor blade quality testing. The master will lay the razor blade edge flat on his thumb-nail (0°, no cutting effect) and gives a little pressure on it. Because the razor blade edge is very thin and flexible a kind of wave will appear in the cutting edge. Now the master moves the blade under pressure from left to right and watch for the wave. Over the whole length of the edge the wave must be the same. Is this the case the edge has a constantly thickness which is very important for a good classic razor blade.

You are probably also right with the faux damask on the cutting edge. Many Solingen swords from 19th and early 20th ct. have only faux damask. If you are interested, I can make a scan from my Solingen-Swordmuseum book. But until now I have never seen a combination of real and faux damask. An inserted cutting edge is quite unusal on Solingen swords of the 19th ct..


best,
Roland