A Balinese Keris (?) for discussion

[Jean]

Hello Alan,
Would you definitely rule-out that this blade could be a very old Balinese blade? The smooth polishing does not seem recent and the blade size was probably significantly larger originally.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Absolutely yes.

There are many old Javanese blades in Bali dress, and in fact some old Balinese pusaka keris have Javanese blades.

Then of course we have the Balinese blades that were taken to Jawa in more recent times --- 1950's to 1970's --- and turned into Javanese blades. This was purely a matter of money:- average garap in a Bali keris is excellent garap in a Jawa keris, and in this period good Jawa keris were worth a lot more money than Bali keris.

There is one factor that is very often overlooked by people who do not try to think like people from times past :- until very recent times the areas of water that to our minds separate the islands of Indonesia, in times past were highways:- the water connected the islands, it was the forest without decent roads that separated settlements.

We sometimes refer to the "Jawa-Bali Nexus". They were joined at the hip. Javanese kings were of Balinese origin sometimes, Bali was ruled by Jawa. There are connections in language:- I cannot speak nor understand spoken Balinese, but I have been assured by native speakers of Javanese that they can understand/guess what is being said in Balinese, once they become used to the accent and delivery. I'm guessing that this might be a bit like me listening to somebody from North West England --- I cannot immediately understand him, but after a couple of hours listening to him I pick up the flow of the words and I can fill in the gaps.

Things don't always fit into neat, separate boxes, its more like they're in pools in water that merge into one another.

[Jean]

Thank you Alan. Now have you got any idea about how the old Balinese blades (I mean from the pre-Islamic period) differ from the Javanese ones? Of course I realize the difficulty of my query
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

irrelevant

[A. G. Maisey]

Just let me clarify that question Jean.

I think you are asking this:-

"How do we tell if a keris blade is either Javanese, or Balinese, if it dates from before 1500 ( the end of the 15th century)?"

The year 1500 is a nominal date, but Islam had already established a presence in Jawa well before this, and Majapahit had collapsed by 1525.

Bali began development of its present form during the Majapahit period, and following the collapse of Majapahit, with the influx of "Wong Jowo" who married into the existing population of Bali at all levels.

We cannot think of 15th century Bali in anything like the way in which we think of 19th century Bali.

How many Balinese made keris were there in Bali in the 15th century?

Were there any at all?

I don't know

Then of course we have the problem of identifying a keris that definitely comes from before 1500. In Jawa such a keris is referred to as a "Keris Buda", because the period before Islam is referred to as the "Buda" period.

Has a Keris Buda ever been found in Bali?

I know of none.

I don't think I can answer your question Jean.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

"How do we tell if a keris blade is either Javanese, or Balinese, if it dates from before 1500 ( the end of the 14th century)?"

The year 1500 is a nominal date, but Islam had already established a presence in Jawa well before this, and Majapahit had collapsed by 1525.

Just to clarify your statements Alan, a keris that date from immediately before 1500 would be from the 1400s which is the 15th century, so did you intend to write 15th century in this statement?

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks David.

I actually intended to write what I did originally write, but my intention was incorrect. Put it down to another conversation in a different place. Too many trains of thought.