Indian pseudoshashka

ariel · 14th October 2016, 06:48 PM

When it rains, it pours...

Two more. No doubt: we are talking about a real , but heretofore non-described pattern

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th October 2016, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

When it rains, it pours...

Two more. No doubt: we are talking about a real , but heretofore non-described pattern

I only see one weapon as the other is at #1 ...

ariel · 15th October 2016, 01:32 PM

Black handle, white handle... :-)

Jim McDougall · 15th October 2016, 05:02 PM

This is an intriguing scenario, these compellingly similar sabres sans guard and with the 'swans neck' type knuckleguard, along with vestigial tunkou.
However it begs the question, are these effectively a 'form' or simply a number of cross influenced variant examples.

The cases of swords which are seemingly a particular form except certain components are missing, may be intended as such, or possibly examples with have lost these components.

We have seen shamshirs and various 'Ottoman bulbous hilt' sabres which have no crossguard and have asked, were there occasions where individuals preferred a sword without a crossguard? As clearly many Central Asian sabres such as shashka have been in notable favor and use without guard, would that character be chosen in altering other sword forms? Why?

We have seen the cases of tulwars with the characteristic disc pommel missing, and asked, was it deliberately removed, or simply broken or lost?
It has seemed there have been numbers of such tulwars in Afghan regions and suggestions that these discs impaired the swordsmans hand in its use.

These sabres add another page to these curious anomalies, but in their case they are clearly made in their form deliberately. The vestigial tunkou seems to me a clear nod toward Ottoman influences; the swans neck guard reflects northern India tulwars of Rajasthan and of course Afghan paluoars; and the hilts themselves the shashka and like Central Asian types.

Rather than a distinct form of sword type, this seems more a case of variant which has occurred in some number and reflecting compiled influences. It will require more instances of examples with regional provenance to establish enough consistency to declare a unique category .

Obviously, an intriguing conundrum and interesting type worthy of continued research.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th October 2016, 04:01 PM

TRY THIS!!

Deccan
sword
from
Vijayanagar

An unusual and rare form of South Indian sword from the Vijayanagar Empire Karnataka. The long sword blade fullered and slightly curved, possibly of European manufacture, a small makers stamp visible near the forte. Long steel blade mounts with fretted and pierced borders, the hilt of 'pistol grip' shape, steel furniture chiselled with geometric decoration(worn) and brass inlay, the ivory grips showing the great age of this sword. Dating to the 17th century.

(THE TECHNIQUE IN ENGINEERING THE KNUCKLE GUARD TO THE HILT SIMILAR TO #38 AND #43 ABOVE)

For more pictures see http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/rare-...om-vijayanagar

For The Vijayanagar Empire SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijayanagara_Empire

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2016, 05:21 PM

Well done Ibrahiim!!!
Somehow does the faceted bolster remind you of a 'Khyber knife' (Siliwar) ??

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2016, 05:52 PM

Continued research= Ibrahiim!!!

Noticed in your last entry, then revisited your post #43.......compelling!!!
In 43, this example is intriguing as it clearly has the 'sinha' or lion head which we associate with the hilt of the kastane. While the 17th century date is in my opinion somewhat optimistic as we remain unclear on the earliest occurrence of the sinha hilt on the kastane, this coupled with the example from Karnataka, does seem to place these in Deccani context.

The diplomatic and general tribal ties between the Deccan and northern India (Afghan) regions are well established, and as seen with certain hilt features such as with the paluoar, the cross influences between these regions also seem understandable.

Is it possible that the sinha/lion head became vestigially stylized in the knob like pommel of these northern versions? We might tenuously observe that line defining the lower outline of the 'knob' being almost a jaw line! in considering such zoomorphic context.

Also found in Pant (1980, p.113, fig. 293) the tulwar hilt known as 'Marwari'. In Pant's 'system' of hilt classifications, this one is claimed to be similar overall to the 'Delhishahi' and 'Aurengzebi' forms except in the case of the knuckleguard.
In the Marwari hilt, there is a distinctly represented swans head which has a dramatic turn back form.
While Marwar was a highly commercial region in Rajasthan, it would seem that its commerce would be well known in northern areas of India (incl Afghan regions).
These Marwar hilts, in addition to the turn back swans neck, had the knuckleguard with split or cut in the center.

I would note the 'Afghan military sword' which has its distinctive split guard also with turn back of this style, and similar to that seen on these curious hilts of OP.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th October 2016, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Continued research= Ibrahiim!!!

Noticed in your last entry, then revisited your post #43.......compelling!!!
In 43, this example is intriguing as it clearly has the 'sinha' or lion head which we associate with the hilt of the kastane. While the 17th century date is in my opinion somewhat optimistic as we remain unclear on the earliest occurrence of the sinha hilt on the kastane, this coupled with the example from Karnataka, does seem to place these in Deccani context.

The diplomatic and general tribal ties between the Deccan and northern India (Afghan) regions are well established, and as seen with certain hilt features such as with the paluoar, the cross influences between these regions also seem understandable.

Is it possible that the sinha/lion head became vestigially stylized in the knob like pommel of these northern versions? We might tenuously observe that line defining the lower outline of the 'knob' being almost a jaw line! in considering such zoomorphic context.

Also found in Pant (1980, p.113, fig. 293) the tulwar hilt known as 'Marwari'. In Pant's 'system' of hilt classifications, this one is claimed to be similar overall to the 'Delhishahi' and 'Aurengzebi' forms except in the case of the knuckleguard.
In the Marwari hilt, there is a distinctly represented swans head which has a dramatic turn back form.
While Marwar was a highly commercial region in Rajasthan, it would seem that its commerce would be well known in northern areas of India (incl Afghan regions).
These Marwar hilts, in addition to the turn back swans neck, had the knuckleguard with split or cut in the center.

I would note the 'Afghan military sword' which has its distinctive split guard also with turn back of this style, and similar to that seen on these curious hilts of OP.

Hello Jim, indeed the hilt at #43 is interesting since it is Southern Indian from Tanjore. I am not sure we are looking at one form or several splinters of one form. It seems every court sword producer could and did make a variety of bling variants although in the Southern style there seems to be a constant in the way the knuckle guard joined the hilt...It does almost appear to be a zoomorphic, perhaps Yali form, or I thought possibly elephant apparently breathing out the knuckleguard and this is mirrored or at least similar in the way the Kastane is engineered.

I have identified several southern form weapons curiously similar in appearance to the shashqa and with the same join engineering knuckle guard to hilt...The trade proof is apparent across strata although one could be forgiven for making it up !! The Deccan was instrumental in the Poulouar form and coincidentally the Central Asian Bukharan exodus caused by the Russians in 1920 may have also pushed the Shashqa into Afghan areas thus fusing or influencing hilt style...Eastern style may also have entered Southern Indian design from the many trips by the Chinese to the region when Tipu Sultan was in power. Being awash with mercenaries from everywhere (including Central Asia) it need not be surprising that hybrids and variants sprang up in the Deccan.

Notwithstanding that confusion I am aware that two of the weapons although similar are called different names... The one is a bird head but the other is a pistol grip...therefor neither are technically Shashqa...because of the shape of the hilts and because they have knuckle guards. Could they both be court swords? This would possibly place them in the category ("Bling") Court Swords ...Southern India.

16th October 2016, 04:01 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	TRY THIS!! Deccan sword from Vijayanagar An unusual and rare form of South Indian sword from the Vijayanagar Empire Karnataka. The long sword blade fullered and slightly curved, possibly of European manufacture, a small makers stamp visible near the forte. Long steel blade mounts with fretted and pierced borders, the hilt of 'pistol grip' shape, steel furniture chiselled with geometric decoration(worn) and brass inlay, the ivory grips showing the great age of this sword. Dating to the 17th century. (THE TECHNIQUE IN ENGINEERING THE KNUCKLE GUARD TO THE HILT SIMILAR TO #38 AND #43 ABOVE) For more pictures see http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/rare-...om-vijayanagar For The Vijayanagar Empire SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijayanagara_Empire Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 16th October 2016 at 04:37 PM.

16th October 2016, 05:52 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Continued research= Ibrahiim!!! Noticed in your last entry, then revisited your post #43.......compelling!!! In 43, this example is intriguing as it clearly has the 'sinha' or lion head which we associate with the hilt of the kastane. While the 17th century date is in my opinion somewhat optimistic as we remain unclear on the earliest occurrence of the sinha hilt on the kastane, this coupled with the example from Karnataka, does seem to place these in Deccani context. The diplomatic and general tribal ties between the Deccan and northern India (Afghan) regions are well established, and as seen with certain hilt features such as with the paluoar, the cross influences between these regions also seem understandable. Is it possible that the sinha/lion head became vestigially stylized in the knob like pommel of these northern versions? We might tenuously observe that line defining the lower outline of the 'knob' being almost a jaw line! in considering such zoomorphic context. Also found in Pant (1980, p.113, fig. 293) the tulwar hilt known as 'Marwari'. In Pant's 'system' of hilt classifications, this one is claimed to be similar overall to the 'Delhishahi' and 'Aurengzebi' forms except in the case of the knuckleguard. In the Marwari hilt, there is a distinctly represented swans head which has a dramatic turn back form. While Marwar was a highly commercial region in Rajasthan, it would seem that its commerce would be well known in northern areas of India (incl Afghan regions). These Marwar hilts, in addition to the turn back swans neck, had the knuckleguard with split or cut in the center. I would note the 'Afghan military sword' which has its distinctive split guard also with turn back of this style, and similar to that seen on these curious hilts of OP. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th October 2016 at 06:10 PM.

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14th October 2016, 06:48 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	When it rains, it pours... Two more. No doubt: we are talking about a real , but heretofore non-described pattern Attached Images

15th October 2016, 01:32 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Black handle, white handle... :-)

15th October 2016, 05:02 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	This is an intriguing scenario, these compellingly similar sabres sans guard and with the 'swans neck' type knuckleguard, along with vestigial tunkou. However it begs the question, are these effectively a 'form' or simply a number of cross influenced variant examples. The cases of swords which are seemingly a particular form except certain components are missing, may be intended as such, or possibly examples with have lost these components. We have seen shamshirs and various 'Ottoman bulbous hilt' sabres which have no crossguard and have asked, were there occasions where individuals preferred a sword without a crossguard? As clearly many Central Asian sabres such as shashka have been in notable favor and use without guard, would that character be chosen in altering other sword forms? Why? We have seen the cases of tulwars with the characteristic disc pommel missing, and asked, was it deliberately removed, or simply broken or lost? It has seemed there have been numbers of such tulwars in Afghan regions and suggestions that these discs impaired the swordsmans hand in its use. These sabres add another page to these curious anomalies, but in their case they are clearly made in their form deliberately. The vestigial tunkou seems to me a clear nod toward Ottoman influences; the swans neck guard reflects northern India tulwars of Rajasthan and of course Afghan paluoars; and the hilts themselves the shashka and like Central Asian types. Rather than a distinct form of sword type, this seems more a case of variant which has occurred in some number and reflecting compiled influences. It will require more instances of examples with regional provenance to establish enough consistency to declare a unique category . Obviously, an intriguing conundrum and interesting type worthy of continued research.

16th October 2016, 05:21 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Well done Ibrahiim!!! Somehow does the faceted bolster remind you of a 'Khyber knife' (Siliwar) ??