THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MOROCCAN AND A ZANZIBARI NIMCHA.

VANDOO · 3rd October 2016, 12:29 AM

THE BLADE IS LIKE THE BLADE ON THE MOROCCAN NIMCHA PICTURED WITH ITS SCABBARD , IN THE NEXT PICTURE ABOVE THIS POST. THE BROKEN BLADE LENGTH IS GOOD FOR A DAGGER OR BAYONET. THE MODIFICATIONS TO THE GUARD ARE UNKNOWN BUT PERHAPS MIGHT BE FOR ATTACHING AS A BAYONET.

THE HORN MAY BE RHINO AND MAY HAVE BEEN MODIFIED OR JUST SHOWING DETERIORATION AND DAMAGED.

IF IT WAS EVER MODIFIED AS A BAYONET IT HAS COME APART SINCE THEN AND PERHAPS THERE ARE PARTS MISSING. THATS MY BEST GUESS

kahnjar1 · 3rd October 2016, 01:07 AM

My guess based on the qillons and the typical "stud" fixing of the tang, is that it is/was a Moroccan Nimcha.
Stu

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd October 2016, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

My guess based on the qillons and the typical "stud" fixing of the tang, is that it is/was a Moroccan Nimcha.
Stu

Yes Stu, thank you...that's the clincher, or one of them ... The stud invariably on the Moroccan pommel top but never on the Zanzibari...The recycled sword now a dagger almost showing how the tang joins the stud.

You can just see the 90 degree turn in the hilt and the Arabesque pattern on the guard backing up the Moroccan provenance. The hilt which is probably Rhino looks like it has been in water...and the termite damage or borer holes have almost totally destroyed it.

What I find interesting about the guard is the two pronged pitons which are sort of halfway to D guard but quilon like in their likely defence style ...again never seen on Zanzibari but on Moroccan; Yes! in a thread by Cathey as I recall.

The blade snapped; in this case apparently European and it would not surprise me to find Genoa bite marks under the oxidation...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd October 2016, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE BLADE IS LIKE THE BLADE ON THE MOROCCAN NIMCHA PICTURED WITH ITS SCABBARD , IN THE NEXT PICTURE ABOVE THIS POST. THE BROKEN BLADE LENGTH IS GOOD FOR A DAGGER OR BAYONET. THE MODIFICATIONS TO THE GUARD ARE UNKNOWN BUT PERHAPS MIGHT BE FOR ATTACHING AS A BAYONET.

THE HORN MAY BE RHINO AND MAY HAVE BEEN MODIFIED OR JUST SHOWING DETERIORATION AND DAMAGED.

IF IT WAS EVER MODIFIED AS A BAYONET IT HAS COME APART SINCE THEN AND PERHAPS THERE ARE PARTS MISSING. THATS MY BEST GUESS

Yes indeed it is good to compare or reference the self same thread here where many pointers can be seen about this weapon...Although I cannot see the bayonet quite...except that some potential is there as the grip appears eroded in two notches?...hmmm... I like that idea ...If only they could talk!!! It certainly forms the well practised technique of re using broken blades as daggers. Certainly it appears as Rhino but badly erroded; likely some sort of termite...

Correct on Morocco as the type and as well as arabesque evidence on the quilons it has the stud on top of the pommel to verify that. Thank you Vandoo.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd October 2016, 08:05 PM

From the Vandoo stable a series of apparent corsair weapons of the mark Nimcha which I have never seen before and in particular beautifully adorned in coral. (Coral is not uncommon in the Indian Ocean but is also often used on the North African coast..

Where to start? ...

Hilt. A Tortoise shell covered Hilt in the tradition of the Algerian form...(I think we rightly group this type alongside the Moroccan?) I place another example of tortoise shell Algerian form horizontally and on its left another example of coral but on a Zanzibari Nimcha.
Hilt further decorated with blueish coloured Enamel or Clossone to the grip. Arabesque platework ( brass or gilded) comprising geometry and split-palmette work around an apparent central eye (missing) surrounded by a floral six segmented design; reflection perhaps to what is on the blade at the throat...a six pointed star. If this is an eye what is the animal it portrays? ... Perhaps The Horse ? Perhaps The Sea Horse? Or is this for a wrist loop?
The hilt probably Rhino further enhanced by Tortoise shell and coral with 5 square shots of silver down one flank and perhaps a similarly Talsimanic number on the other...interspersed with coral-stone dots...some white...mainly red.

Blade ...The six pointed star of Soloman... See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_Solomon Both sides of the European blade with crosses and tiny moon strikes in the same throat region..If this is an eye what is the animal it portrays? ... Perhaps The Horse ? Perhaps The Sea Horse? A heavy backblade and 4 fullers reaching down much of the blade. Is this blade a Kilij form...?

Finials on Quilons and Knuckle guard decorated by budded ends with beautiful silver crowns each topped by a tiny coral stone; A clear reflector of the seagoing sword form.

The base ring Silver. Decorated in Floral Arabesque but with the tiny prayer-like niche missing on one side but half present on the other ( See the horizontal example for a complete one on that weapon) Perhaps these niches form 4 prongs of a crown...the base ring.

Knuckle Guard. An interesting ships bow or perhaps a sort of sea monster on the outward face of the Knuckleguard?..The guard in this style not exactly commencing with an elbow 90 degree bend but a tight bend and not the soft S turn of its Indian Ocean sister ..

Pommel; Clad in tiny silver plates almost identical to the Horizontal example ~ the plates reminiscent of minute Moroccan prayer rugs overlapping and decorated in floral motifs. The typical stud pointing identifies it as North African...Moroccan/ Algerian. The Pommel turned at about 90 degrees giving a bigger grip and typically so turned...as are all Nimcha from Moroccan style.

My interpretation based mainly upon this thread using the clues of the single stud on the pommel and the 90 degree turn to the pommel...and decor... illustrates a fine Moroccan / Algerian Rhino and Tortoise hilted Nimcha with Clossone Coral and Silver decoration on a European blade likely to be Italian (Genoa) displaying Star of Soloman and other typical North African astrological devices..

Thanks to Vandoo for the pictures.

Please feel free to comment...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th October 2016, 06:23 PM

For a quick warm up...what ARE THESE ?

MASTERCLASS WIZARD STANDARD ONE MINUTE... NORMAL MEMBERS 5 MINUTES.

kronckew · 5th October 2016, 07:05 AM

swords

VANDOO · 5th October 2016, 07:50 AM

I THINK OF THE LONG NIMCHA AS SWORDS TO BE USED ON HORSEBACK PRIMARILY BUT OF COURSE THEY CAN BE USED ON FOOT OR ON SHIPS AS WELL. ALL EXAMPLES PICTURED ABOVE FIT THE HORSEMAN'S SWORD TYPE
EXCEPT THE LAST PICTURE. IT IS WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS A WEDDING NIMCHA AND IS LARGELY USED AT MARRIAGE CEREMONIES TODAY AND IS DAGGER TO SHORT SWORD IN SIZE. ALL THE ONES I HAVE SEEN HAVE BEEN FAIRLY RECENT SAY WW1 TO PRESENT BUT OLDER FORMS MAY HAVE BEEN WEAPONS

MOST I HAVE SEEN WERE ATTRIBUTED TO ALGERIA BUT LIKELY TO BE FOUND IN SURROUNDING COUNTRIES.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th October 2016, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I THINK OF THE LONG NIMCHA AS SWORDS TO BE USED ON HORSEBACK PRIMARILY BUT OF COURSE THEY CAN BE USED ON FOOT OR ON SHIPS AS WELL. ALL EXAMPLES PICTURED ABOVE FIT THE HORSEMAN'S SWORD TYPE
EXCEPT THE LAST PICTURE. IT IS WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS A WEDDING NIMCHA AND IS LARGELY USED AT MARRIAGE CEREMONIES TODAY AND IS DAGGER TO SHORT SWORD IN SIZE. ALL THE ONES I HAVE SEEN HAVE BEEN FAIRLY RECENT SAY WW1 TO PRESENT BUT OLDER FORMS MAY HAVE BEEN WEAPONS

MOST I HAVE SEEN WERE ATTRIBUTED TO ALGERIA BUT LIKELY TO BE FOUND IN SURROUNDING COUNTRIES.

Good point VANDOO ~ It is apparent that two blade length styles sub divide the Magrebi form and that ships short blades and long mounted cavalry are there. I have seen artwork of these long blades on warriors on horseback and camel...It is a fact that Magreb means the cluster of countries like Morocco and Algeria where these forms are found. The former preferred by Corsairs
(Corsairs= Moriscos after feeing from Spain in the early 1600s. )

(These so called wedding daggers are interesting also known as Fleessa or Algerian Nimcha Daggers..Personally I also see them as somewhat ineffective being rather spindley and weak in the quillon region..Whilst the hilts follow a Nimcha style I cannot be sure of their original provenance...perhaps more comments can be forthcoming from others as it looks like a latecomer to the style.)

Below a further look at artwork down the ages at some different Magrebi Nimcha blade-lengths... As I see it there are three Magrebi types viz;

1.The huge meaty Embassadorial form.
2.The Short Corsair form.
3.The Long Cavalry form...

Comments please...?

3rd October 2016, 08:05 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	From the Vandoo stable a series of apparent corsair weapons of the mark Nimcha which I have never seen before and in particular beautifully adorned in coral. (Coral is not uncommon in the Indian Ocean but is also often used on the North African coast.. Where to start? ... Hilt. A Tortoise shell covered Hilt in the tradition of the Algerian form...(I think we rightly group this type alongside the Moroccan?) I place another example of tortoise shell Algerian form horizontally and on its left another example of coral but on a Zanzibari Nimcha. Hilt further decorated with blueish coloured Enamel or Clossone to the grip. Arabesque platework ( brass or gilded) comprising geometry and split-palmette work around an apparent central eye (missing) surrounded by a floral six segmented design; reflection perhaps to what is on the blade at the throat...a six pointed star. If this is an eye what is the animal it portrays? ... Perhaps The Horse ? Perhaps The Sea Horse? Or is this for a wrist loop? The hilt probably Rhino further enhanced by Tortoise shell and coral with 5 square shots of silver down one flank and perhaps a similarly Talsimanic number on the other...interspersed with coral-stone dots...some white...mainly red. Blade ...The six pointed star of Soloman... See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_Solomon Both sides of the European blade with crosses and tiny moon strikes in the same throat region..If this is an eye what is the animal it portrays? ... Perhaps The Horse ? Perhaps The Sea Horse? A heavy backblade and 4 fullers reaching down much of the blade. Is this blade a Kilij form...? Finials on Quilons and Knuckle guard decorated by budded ends with beautiful silver crowns each topped by a tiny coral stone; A clear reflector of the seagoing sword form. The base ring Silver. Decorated in Floral Arabesque but with the tiny prayer-like niche missing on one side but half present on the other ( See the horizontal example for a complete one on that weapon) Perhaps these niches form 4 prongs of a crown...the base ring. Knuckle Guard. An interesting ships bow or perhaps a sort of sea monster on the outward face of the Knuckleguard?..The guard in this style not exactly commencing with an elbow 90 degree bend but a tight bend and not the soft S turn of its Indian Ocean sister .. Pommel; Clad in tiny silver plates almost identical to the Horizontal example ~ the plates reminiscent of minute Moroccan prayer rugs overlapping and decorated in floral motifs. The typical stud pointing identifies it as North African...Moroccan/ Algerian. The Pommel turned at about 90 degrees giving a bigger grip and typically so turned...as are all Nimcha from Moroccan style. My interpretation based mainly upon this thread using the clues of the single stud on the pommel and the 90 degree turn to the pommel...and decor... illustrates a fine Moroccan / Algerian Rhino and Tortoise hilted Nimcha with Clossone Coral and Silver decoration on a European blade likely to be Italian (Genoa) displaying Star of Soloman and other typical North African astrological devices.. Thanks to Vandoo for the pictures. Please feel free to comment... Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th October 2016 at 12:24 AM.

4th October 2016, 06:23 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	For a quick warm up...what ARE THESE ? MASTERCLASS WIZARD STANDARD ONE MINUTE... NORMAL MEMBERS 5 MINUTES. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th October 2016 at 07:32 PM.

5th October 2016, 07:50 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I THINK OF THE LONG NIMCHA AS SWORDS TO BE USED ON HORSEBACK PRIMARILY BUT OF COURSE THEY CAN BE USED ON FOOT OR ON SHIPS AS WELL. ALL EXAMPLES PICTURED ABOVE FIT THE HORSEMAN'S SWORD TYPE EXCEPT THE LAST PICTURE. IT IS WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS A WEDDING NIMCHA AND IS LARGELY USED AT MARRIAGE CEREMONIES TODAY AND IS DAGGER TO SHORT SWORD IN SIZE. ALL THE ONES I HAVE SEEN HAVE BEEN FAIRLY RECENT SAY WW1 TO PRESENT BUT OLDER FORMS MAY HAVE BEEN WEAPONS MOST I HAVE SEEN WERE ATTRIBUTED TO ALGERIA BUT LIKELY TO BE FOUND IN SURROUNDING COUNTRIES. Last edited by VANDOO; 5th October 2016 at 02:00 PM.

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3rd October 2016, 12:29 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE BLADE IS LIKE THE BLADE ON THE MOROCCAN NIMCHA PICTURED WITH ITS SCABBARD , IN THE NEXT PICTURE ABOVE THIS POST. THE BROKEN BLADE LENGTH IS GOOD FOR A DAGGER OR BAYONET. THE MODIFICATIONS TO THE GUARD ARE UNKNOWN BUT PERHAPS MIGHT BE FOR ATTACHING AS A BAYONET. THE HORN MAY BE RHINO AND MAY HAVE BEEN MODIFIED OR JUST SHOWING DETERIORATION AND DAMAGED. IF IT WAS EVER MODIFIED AS A BAYONET IT HAS COME APART SINCE THEN AND PERHAPS THERE ARE PARTS MISSING. THATS MY BEST GUESS

3rd October 2016, 01:07 AM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	My guess based on the qillons and the typical "stud" fixing of the tang, is that it is/was a Moroccan Nimcha. Stu

5th October 2016, 07:05 AM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	swords