Meteorite iron?

Jean · 28th September 2016, 11:33 AM

Thank you Alan for your informative and wise reply!

Seerp Visser · 28th September 2016, 08:14 PM

Aside from the good explanation of Alain, i can only add a little comment.

The meteoritic iron of the Prambanan meteorite was very expensive. Dr. Groneman mentions 10 guilders N.I. for about 30 grams.
Further he mentions that it was difficult to obtain and it took the empu Karja di Krama a long time to get it.

Karja di Krama forged the kris for Dr. Groneman for an amount of 40 guilders N.I.

According to Dr. Groneman an everage of about 200 grams pamor material was added to a kris. In the case this should have been all meteoritic iron there should be for about 60 guilders meteoritic iron in a kris of 40 guilders.

So to my opinion, apart from the fact that it is very rare that meteoritic iron was used, the amount of meteoritic iron in an old kris is very small.
It was folded in a piece of other pamor material before welding it in the blade.

So, i think, it will be very difficult too, to feel a difference on the surface of the blade, caused by the meteoritic iron.

I hope there will be a kris in the future where it is proved by analyzing, that meteoritic iron is present. Then, if the blade is still in good condition, we might be able to feel differences in material caused by the meteoritic iron and describe them.

David · 28th September 2016, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seerp Visser

I hope there will be a kris in the future where it is proved by analyzing, that meteoritic iron is present. Then, if the blade is still in good condition, we might be able to feel differences in material caused by the meteoritic iron and describe them.

But Seerp, we already have numerous examples of keris that we know actually have meteorite in them as Alan has pointed out. That is because they were made at times when this process was fully recorded. The prickly feel that some describe can also be felt on pamor that very likely does NOT contain meteorite so having such keris to go by seems not to be a very good standard to make a positive judgement.
BTW, you can gone to this site and calculate the value of a guilder in, say, 1900 (or any date). http://www.iisg.nl/hpw/calculate.php
It seems that in 1900 the cost of a single gram of Prambanan meteorite was around $50 if Groneman's records are correct. That seems a bit high by today's standards.
The cost to make the keris is close to $600 by today's value which many would say is quite low for empu level workmanship on a keris.

A. G. Maisey · 29th September 2016, 03:00 PM

The way in which meteoritic material was used by Javanese smiths was that a number of small pebbles (pieces) of the material were placed into a piece of iron that was folded over into an envelope, this envelope was then welded, forged out, welded again a number of times until the meteoritic material was incorporated into the iron. This process was no different to the way in which any pamor material was used, and it remains the same today.

The typical Javanese forge uses charcoal, sometimes the forge is just a shallow depression in the ground --- I have seen Balinese smiths using this type of forge also --- the blower was an ububan :- lengths of bambu with plungers like big feather dusters. Whether the forge was a depression in the ground, or whether it was raised higher on bricks or stones, the actual fire-bed was bowl shaped, quite shallow and was side blown.

In a forge of this design it is virtually impossible to weld any type of pamor material, meteoritic or otherwise, into a homogeneous piece of material that can then be welded with iron to provide the pamor for a blade, the difficulty is that it is not possible to take a weld on a number of uncontrolled pieces of material floating around in the fire. This difficulty is overcome by using the envelope approach.

In modern times commercial nickel or some other factory produced contrasting material is used, and we only need to deal with a single piece of regularly shaped material.

The picture above of the keris that pande keris Yantono made, using meteoritic material that I welded uses pamor that was made with meteoritic material that had been combined into a small billet thus the billet of meteoritic material could be incorporated into the iron in exactly the same way as if it had been commercial nickel.

I welded meteoritic material used in the keris above, in a gas forge, not in charcoal, not in coke. I welded a number of billets of meteoritic material, all of which were made with a number of small pieces of Arizona meteor. Small pieces, because at that time--- about 1990--- it was incredibly difficult to buy large pieces of meteor, and even the small pieces were very expensive.

I did initially attempt to weld meteoritic material in a coke forge, and I did have limited success, but it was a very wasteful process, and very, very difficult. I never used the Javanese envelope method with meteoritic material.

Using a gas forge for welding is about as difficult as making a chocolate cake --- in fact I'd say that making a decent chocolate cake is quite a bit more difficult than taking a weld in a gas forge.

The same is not true of coke, nor of charcoal.

I am quite certain of the way in which Javanese smiths welded pamor. Apart from having seen it done, and I myself having tested this method, I have a copy of a smith's textbook that was compiled under the aegis of the Karaton Surakarta, and this is the method shown in that text book.

So when we speak of "meteorite pamor", we are not talking about the entire bulk of pamor material being from a meteor. We are talking about the contrast in the pamor being provided by meteoritic material that has been welded with iron. We do not need very much meteor.

In respect of using analysis to prove that a keris has been made from meteor.

Beginning in about 1988 and continuing until the time of his passing, I cooperated with Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski of Poland in the metallurgical examination of Javanese keris. Prof. Piaskowski wrote several papers detailing the results of his examinations.

According to the information provided to me by Prof. Piaskowski, it is not possible to identify material of meteoritic origin once that material has been removed from the meteor and put through forging processes. This was the case 20 years ago, I do not know if this situation has now changed.

In about 1983 Haryono Arumbinang Msc, of Yogyakarta, carried out a series of examinations of keris in the Yogya Atom Laboratory. He examined a number of keris dating from early periods, and he discovered that some of these keris contained titanium.

This discovery was seized upon by the Javanese keris community as proof that Javanese smiths in ancient times were able to successfully weld titanium into the pamor of a keris, and that the titanium itself was proof that the pamor was made from meteoritic material.

In fact, titanium is very widely distributed on earth, the difficulty with titanium is not its rarity, but with its extraction from the other materials that carry it. There was no need for the titanium to come from meteors:- it was already right here on earth, and all around us.

But even today you will still hear some Javanese keris authorities maintaining that the presence of titanium in keris is proof that those keris contain meteoritic material.

Belief is a wonderful thing.

rasdan · 30th September 2016, 07:06 PM

I am not a metalurgist, but I think the titanium that Bpk Arumbinang detected came from some ilmenite (FeTiO3) that are probably present in the ore that were used for the keris. I am not sure if that is possible, but ilmenite does contain iron.

Seerp Visser · 30th September 2016, 08:11 PM

Alain,
The kris you showed has a beautiful pamor. Since i am a blacksmith i am very interested to know how to make this pamor.
In fact since some time i am looking for the secrets behind the pamor Bulu Ajam too. For me a very special and beautiful pamor.
Here in the Netherlands and Belgium (where i live) we know the feather damast, but the pamor of our Indonesian brothers impresses me very much. Are you willing to inform me about the way to forge this?

A. G. Maisey · 2nd October 2016, 10:30 PM

Seerp, this pamor is made by surface manipulation, essentially it is the same process that is used making the Middle Eastern ladder patterns. Udan mas, bonang, banyu tetes, all these pamors are just simple surface manipulation.

Bulu ayam is an East Jawa name for ron duru. The legend with ron duru is that an empu made it once during his lifetime, and then he died.

I'd sooner not be responsible for your death Seerp.

But seriously, when I was taught how to make ron duru I was cautioned that this knowledge was sufficient for me alone. I am prohibited from telling you how to complete the entire process. What I can tell you, and this is common knowledge, is that it is made by stacking, splitting and rewelding.

I suggest that you get hold of the books of Jim Hrisoulis, from memory I think you need "The Master Bladesmith". You should be able to work out how to do it by analysing the information you will find there.

Working with plasticine can help a lot in working out how to make various pamor patterns.

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28th September 2016, 11:33 AM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan for your informative and wise reply!

28th September 2016, 08:14 PM	#2
Seerp Visser Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 37	Aside from the good explanation of Alain, i can only add a little comment. The meteoritic iron of the Prambanan meteorite was very expensive. Dr. Groneman mentions 10 guilders N.I. for about 30 grams. Further he mentions that it was difficult to obtain and it took the empu Karja di Krama a long time to get it. Karja di Krama forged the kris for Dr. Groneman for an amount of 40 guilders N.I. According to Dr. Groneman an everage of about 200 grams pamor material was added to a kris. In the case this should have been all meteoritic iron there should be for about 60 guilders meteoritic iron in a kris of 40 guilders. So to my opinion, apart from the fact that it is very rare that meteoritic iron was used, the amount of meteoritic iron in an old kris is very small. It was folded in a piece of other pamor material before welding it in the blade. So, i think, it will be very difficult too, to feel a difference on the surface of the blade, caused by the meteoritic iron. I hope there will be a kris in the future where it is proved by analyzing, that meteoritic iron is present. Then, if the blade is still in good condition, we might be able to feel differences in material caused by the meteoritic iron and describe them.

29th September 2016, 03:00 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	The way in which meteoritic material was used by Javanese smiths was that a number of small pebbles (pieces) of the material were placed into a piece of iron that was folded over into an envelope, this envelope was then welded, forged out, welded again a number of times until the meteoritic material was incorporated into the iron. This process was no different to the way in which any pamor material was used, and it remains the same today. The typical Javanese forge uses charcoal, sometimes the forge is just a shallow depression in the ground --- I have seen Balinese smiths using this type of forge also --- the blower was an ububan :- lengths of bambu with plungers like big feather dusters. Whether the forge was a depression in the ground, or whether it was raised higher on bricks or stones, the actual fire-bed was bowl shaped, quite shallow and was side blown. In a forge of this design it is virtually impossible to weld any type of pamor material, meteoritic or otherwise, into a homogeneous piece of material that can then be welded with iron to provide the pamor for a blade, the difficulty is that it is not possible to take a weld on a number of uncontrolled pieces of material floating around in the fire. This difficulty is overcome by using the envelope approach. In modern times commercial nickel or some other factory produced contrasting material is used, and we only need to deal with a single piece of regularly shaped material. The picture above of the keris that pande keris Yantono made, using meteoritic material that I welded uses pamor that was made with meteoritic material that had been combined into a small billet thus the billet of meteoritic material could be incorporated into the iron in exactly the same way as if it had been commercial nickel. I welded meteoritic material used in the keris above, in a gas forge, not in charcoal, not in coke. I welded a number of billets of meteoritic material, all of which were made with a number of small pieces of Arizona meteor. Small pieces, because at that time--- about 1990--- it was incredibly difficult to buy large pieces of meteor, and even the small pieces were very expensive. I did initially attempt to weld meteoritic material in a coke forge, and I did have limited success, but it was a very wasteful process, and very, very difficult. I never used the Javanese envelope method with meteoritic material. Using a gas forge for welding is about as difficult as making a chocolate cake --- in fact I'd say that making a decent chocolate cake is quite a bit more difficult than taking a weld in a gas forge. The same is not true of coke, nor of charcoal. I am quite certain of the way in which Javanese smiths welded pamor. Apart from having seen it done, and I myself having tested this method, I have a copy of a smith's textbook that was compiled under the aegis of the Karaton Surakarta, and this is the method shown in that text book. So when we speak of "meteorite pamor", we are not talking about the entire bulk of pamor material being from a meteor. We are talking about the contrast in the pamor being provided by meteoritic material that has been welded with iron. We do not need very much meteor. In respect of using analysis to prove that a keris has been made from meteor. Beginning in about 1988 and continuing until the time of his passing, I cooperated with Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski of Poland in the metallurgical examination of Javanese keris. Prof. Piaskowski wrote several papers detailing the results of his examinations. According to the information provided to me by Prof. Piaskowski, it is not possible to identify material of meteoritic origin once that material has been removed from the meteor and put through forging processes. This was the case 20 years ago, I do not know if this situation has now changed. In about 1983 Haryono Arumbinang Msc, of Yogyakarta, carried out a series of examinations of keris in the Yogya Atom Laboratory. He examined a number of keris dating from early periods, and he discovered that some of these keris contained titanium. This discovery was seized upon by the Javanese keris community as proof that Javanese smiths in ancient times were able to successfully weld titanium into the pamor of a keris, and that the titanium itself was proof that the pamor was made from meteoritic material. In fact, titanium is very widely distributed on earth, the difficulty with titanium is not its rarity, but with its extraction from the other materials that carry it. There was no need for the titanium to come from meteors:- it was already right here on earth, and all around us. But even today you will still hear some Javanese keris authorities maintaining that the presence of titanium in keris is proof that those keris contain meteoritic material. Belief is a wonderful thing.

30th September 2016, 07:06 PM	#5
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	I am not a metalurgist, but I think the titanium that Bpk Arumbinang detected came from some ilmenite (FeTiO3) that are probably present in the ore that were used for the keris. I am not sure if that is possible, but ilmenite does contain iron.

30th September 2016, 08:11 PM	#6
Seerp Visser Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 37	Alain, The kris you showed has a beautiful pamor. Since i am a blacksmith i am very interested to know how to make this pamor. In fact since some time i am looking for the secrets behind the pamor Bulu Ajam too. For me a very special and beautiful pamor. Here in the Netherlands and Belgium (where i live) we know the feather damast, but the pamor of our Indonesian brothers impresses me very much. Are you willing to inform me about the way to forge this?

2nd October 2016, 10:30 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Seerp, this pamor is made by surface manipulation, essentially it is the same process that is used making the Middle Eastern ladder patterns. Udan mas, bonang, banyu tetes, all these pamors are just simple surface manipulation. Bulu ayam is an East Jawa name for ron duru. The legend with ron duru is that an empu made it once during his lifetime, and then he died. I'd sooner not be responsible for your death Seerp. But seriously, when I was taught how to make ron duru I was cautioned that this knowledge was sufficient for me alone. I am prohibited from telling you how to complete the entire process. What I can tell you, and this is common knowledge, is that it is made by stacking, splitting and rewelding. I suggest that you get hold of the books of Jim Hrisoulis, from memory I think you need "The Master Bladesmith". You should be able to work out how to do it by analysing the information you will find there. Working with plasticine can help a lot in working out how to make various pamor patterns.