First attempt at etching

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Hi Mariusgmioc
I do not think it is a Wootz blade
Just a standard laminate so the etching is probably as good as it will get
I enjoyed the learning experience all the same
ken

If it is not wootz nor pattern welded, then why etching?!

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

If it is not wootz nor pattern welded, then why etching?!

Hello Marius,

laminated means pattern welded, but obviously without a specific pattern. I would call it "wild mechanical damascus".

Imho, just in my honest opinion, a salt like Iron(III)Sulfate or Sodium Persulfate may bring out more details from mechanical damascus than Nital. Nital also has a nasty tendency to penetrate deep into the surface.


Roland

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hello Marius,

laminated means pattern welded, but obviously without a specific pattern. I would call it "wild mechanical damascus".

Imho, just in my honest opinion, a salt like Iron(III)Sulfate or Sodium Persulfate may bring out more details from mechanical damascus than Nital. Nital also has a nasty tendency to penetrate deep into the surface.


Roland

Roland, I quite like your restorations, could you post images as well?

Nice job, Ken! I need to get Nital.. very hard to get here >.<

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Roland, I quite like your restorations, could you post images as well?

Nice job, Ken! I need to get Nital.. very hard to get here >.<

Hard to get in Europe as well but I order it online from the US, have it delivered to a friend of mine living there and he ships it to me in the Netherlands.

I simply don't understand why is so hard to get, as diluted Nital is almost harmless being only a little more acidic than lemon juice. But chemistry was never my cup of tea and maybe Ken can explain us more?!

[Kmaddock]

Hi
Methanol and nitric acid produce methyl nitrate
In strong ( greater than 10 percent volume/volume) solutions it is an explosive
So I presume this is the reason this is a restricted substance,
If you distilled off the methanol from the etchant you will end up with an explosive mixture.
Used etchant solution which has lots of metals dissolved in the solution is unstable at lower concentrations as the metals can catalyse the decomposition.
Lots on the net if you search" alcohol nitric acid solutions"
I think the advantage of using the acid in alcohol as the etching solution is there is less surface tension in the solution so it is less likely to bead on the metal surface.
Regards
Ken

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Hi
Methanol and nitric acid produce methyl nitrate
In strong ( greater than 10 percent volume/volume) solutions it is an explosive
So I presume this is the reason this is a restricted substance,
If you distilled off the methanol from the etchant you will end up with an explosive mixture.
Used etchant solution which has lots of metals dissolved in the solution is unstable at lower concentrations as the metals can catalyse the decomposition.
Lots on the net if you search" alcohol nitric acid solutions"
I think the advantage of using the acid in alcohol as the etching solution is there is less surface tension in the solution so it is less likely to bead on the metal surface.
Regards
Ken

Thank you very much for this interesting information! This also explains why the sellers say that 5% Nital is unstable as the alcohool can evaporate and then it becomes explosive.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Hi
Methanol and nitric acid produce methyl nitrate
In strong ( greater than 10 percent volume/volume) solutions it is an explosive
So I presume this is the reason this is a restricted substance,
If you distilled off the methanol from the etchant you will end up with an explosive mixture.
Used etchant solution which has lots of metals dissolved in the solution is unstable at lower concentrations as the metals can catalyse the decomposition.
Lots on the net if you search" alcohol nitric acid solutions"
I think the advantage of using the acid in alcohol as the etching solution is there is less surface tension in the solution so it is less likely to bead on the metal surface.
Regards
Ken

Thank you so much! I had no idea! (not that I use this solution.....)

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hello Marius,

laminated means pattern welded, but obviously without a specific pattern. I would call it "wild mechanical damascus".

Imho, just in my honest opinion, a salt like Iron(III)Sulfate or Sodium Persulfate may bring out more details from mechanical damascus than Nital. Nital also has a nasty tendency to penetrate deep into the surface.


Roland

Hey Roland,

Pattern welded is laminated but not all laminated is pattern welded.

Pattern weleded refers to multi-layered laminated steels of diferent compositions such that the resulted surface displays a specific pattern.

San-mai is laminated but not pattern welded (as it involves only three steels) for example.

Japanese Katanas have laminated but not pattern welded blades despite displaying even the characteristic patterns (Hada), as they do not empoy diferent steels with different compositions.

Also some modern blades like for example Helle or Mora knives do have laminated but not pattern welded blades.

So calling any laminate "Damascus" whether wild or domesticated is a little over-stretching in my oppinion.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Pattern weleded refers to multi-layered laminated steels of diferent compositions such that the resulted surface displays a specific pattern.

San-mai is laminated but not pattern welded (as it involves only three steels) for example.

Japanese Katanas have laminated but not pattern welded blades despite displaying even the characteristic patterns (Hada), as they do not empoy diferent steels with different compositions.

So calling any laminate "Damascus" whether wild or domesticated is a little over-stretching in my oppinion.

Hello Marius,

you are right, my definition for "pattern welded" is a little too comprehensive.
It is hard to declare a clear border. For example, there is at least one type of original Katana with pattern welded steel, search for "Mokume Hada" please. On the other hand, the normal "Itame Hada" and "Masame Hade" is not pattern welded.
"Wild damascus" is my translation from the German term "wilder Damast" for every steel which was made from more than one type of steel without a specific pattern.

Roland

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hello Marius,

you are right, my definition for "pattern welded" is a little too comprehensive.
It is hard to declare a clear border. For example, there is at least one type of original Katana with pattern welded steel, search for "Mokume Hada" please. On the other hand, the normal "Itame Hada" and "Masame Hade" is not pattern welded.
"Wild damascus" is my translation from the German term "wilder Damast" for every steel which was made from more than one type of steel without a specific pattern.

Roland

Hello Roland and thank you for the clarifications!

However, your interpretation of Mokume Hada but also... on second thoughts... my general interpretation of Hada are rather debatable.

The only diference beteween Mokume Hada and Itame Hada is the way they are hammered resulting in different appearance, but the composition is exactly the same. So if we say that one is pattern welded, then the other must be pattern welded as well.

On the other hand, since Hada is practically the pattern resulted from multiple layers of steel laminated together, and the resulted pattern is purposedly achieved, maybe all hada should be considered pattern welded.

[Battara]

I guess for my comfort and clarity, keeping Japanese terms for nihonto and the wootz terms for wootz (or pattern weld etc.) is the best way to go........

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Battara

I guess for my comfort and clarity, keeping Japanese terms for nihonto and the wootz terms for wootz (or pattern weld etc.) is the best way to go........

I fully agree with your suggestion about terminology.

Regarding your second posting: what etching agent were you using?!